anyone else running vintage Empire carts?
- Thread starter gadget73
- Start date
Thanks Russooll. Nice price too. The page is titled "Pfanstiehl", but under "Source" in the listing it says "Empire". Do you know: did Pfanstiehl get an original made by Empire, or did Pfanstiehl make it?
The suspension on my NOS stylus is fine, it aged well — or didn't age at all.
doctor fuse
Super Member
Picked up a CEC BD-2000 turntable for $30, last week. Came with an Empire cartridge with a trashed stylus. Posted it here on AK and the general consensus is that it's a 2000E body.
Ordered an elliptical stylus from ePray, coming from the Netherlands. $34 including shipping. It was a bit difficult to pay more for the needle than the turntable and cartridge body (and dust bug arm brush!), but I couldn't resist - how can you resist listening to a new cartridge?
Ordered an elliptical stylus from ePray, coming from the Netherlands. $34 including shipping. It was a bit difficult to pay more for the needle than the turntable and cartridge body (and dust bug arm brush!), but I couldn't resist - how can you resist listening to a new cartridge?
Russooll
Active Member
You might want to pick one up because he is down to silver only, he might be running low. My understanding is that Pfanstiehl and some other aftermarket brands received oem styli and repackaged them. In Pfanstiehl's case the original styli are the 3 digit numbers and their replacements add a 4 to the front of the number, I.E. 239-DET=original & 4239-DET=replacement.
Hey guys, without reading through every page of this thread (which I haven't done yet), is there either a chart or a group of pages that lists what the resistance should be for each of the Empire bodies?
And how about which stylus should sound best with a body showing a specific resistance?
I'm mostly wondering about the 888 and 999 types, and the "blob on clip" bodies, as they're what I'll want to use on my Empire 298 & 598.
BTW - the newest Empire goodie I just acquired. Hope to try this one on my 598.
And how about which stylus should sound best with a body showing a specific resistance?
I'm mostly wondering about the 888 and 999 types, and the "blob on clip" bodies, as they're what I'll want to use on my Empire 298 & 598.
BTW - the newest Empire goodie I just acquired. Hope to try this one on my 598.
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KSM74
Active Member
Green line - original needle 239-DET silver (compliace ~30), red line - 4239-DET silver (compliace ~25)
Attachments
Interesting. Where did that 4239-DET come from?
todd141
New Member
KSM74
Active Member
VoM. In the photo on the left - http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....ge-empire-carts.468129/page-128#post-10610261
Sounds bright and now we see it measures bright. Thanks for doing the measurement.
I don't have one, but people generally like the sound these big old moving-magnet models produce, and output tends to be high. Usually the problem with owning them is finding styli, any styli, for them.
Thanks. Just grabbed an 880 body to try the 880p stylus on (assuming that NOS stylus is capable).
Which version of the 880 came with the white nose? Would that be a plain 880 or 880pe? Anyway, the one I bought has the white nose. Stylus coming is a greenie for the p. Body was cheap enough, as was the stylus - hope they're both good. ^_^
You'll notice that the 880's "nose" is a separate piece, not part of the stylus assembly. You could have a black nose (indicating the cartridge, a PE, was factory-fitted with an elliptical) with a green P conical stylus in it. The white nose indicates an original 1962 880 conical. The P is the improved ("Professional") lighter-tracking conical.
Audio ad from June 1962:
Audio ad from June 1962:
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Grainger49
Old Fart
How is this... I have a 999TE/X with a tVOM generic stylus. Would that generator benefit from a Pfansteil (I think) PM2395DE? It is black, no EMPIRE on the stylus guard. The black styli were supposed to be for the 1000ZE/X.
I trust your collective wisdom.
I trust your collective wisdom.
If your 999TE/X looks like this..
...then I'd recommend getting the best available/affordable stylus I know of at the moment, the original 999VE/X (Pfanstiehl 235-VDE) from tVOM. To save some $, try the 4236-ZDE.
Were you looking at the black stylus from stereoneedleslady? I've had good luck with her stuff, but I haven't tried the one she cross-references to the EVG number PM2395DE, which, believe it or not, crosses to the entire 1000ZE/X family, excepting only a couple of conicals!
...then I'd recommend getting the best available/affordable stylus I know of at the moment, the original 999VE/X (Pfanstiehl 235-VDE) from tVOM. To save some $, try the 4236-ZDE.
Were you looking at the black stylus from stereoneedleslady? I've had good luck with her stuff, but I haven't tried the one she cross-references to the EVG number PM2395DE, which, believe it or not, crosses to the entire 1000ZE/X family, excepting only a couple of conicals!
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Grainger49
Old Fart
Mine is a blob on a metal clip. So does an upgraded stylus apply to this body/mount? BTW, which came first, the plastic mount or the metal mount?
The one I was looking at was from NeedleDaddy1. I may be wrong about the aftermarket seller since I can't see all of the clear plastic box, it isn't the plastic boxes with paper backs. Maybe it is Astatic. (sp?)
The one I was looking at was from NeedleDaddy1. I may be wrong about the aftermarket seller since I can't see all of the clear plastic box, it isn't the plastic boxes with paper backs. Maybe it is Astatic. (sp?)
Blob-on-Clip? Then yours must be the 999TE/X Improved. It's a 66 clone with a confusing name. So ignore everything in post 3416, and don't buy a PM2395DE from anyone, since it won't fit. You're back with the large number of people who are looking for 239-PDE (Empire's S912E/S910E) styli. EVG's number would be PM2389DE, but according to the downloadable pdf EVG catalog, it's a one-stylus-fits-all, which makes me think it's not likely to be TOTL quality.
To answer your other question, Empire started out making all-metal cartridges. The switchover to a plastic fixed mount came with the late '60s 888s. Then with the Blobs ('73), Empire switched back to all-metal again, but using a thin removable spring clip not dissimilar to Shure's short-lived Easy-Mount for the M91E (and a few others).
To answer your other question, Empire started out making all-metal cartridges. The switchover to a plastic fixed mount came with the late '60s 888s. Then with the Blobs ('73), Empire switched back to all-metal again, but using a thin removable spring clip not dissimilar to Shure's short-lived Easy-Mount for the M91E (and a few others).
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Questions about “blob on clip” resistance ranges:
How many different “ranges” are there for these and how is the best stylus type for each Ω range determined?
I just measured a few that I have here:
66qe/x and 2000e/III - right about 1020 Ω each channel.
1000te/x and 3000me/x - right about 500 Ω each channel.
Are there other ranges as well for the blob on clip bodies? So, how do we choose styli for the unknown numbers (like my 3000me/x) after we measure resistance? Just use what fits? Feed ‘em what’s on sale?
How many different “ranges” are there for these and how is the best stylus type for each Ω range determined?
I just measured a few that I have here:
66qe/x and 2000e/III - right about 1020 Ω each channel.
1000te/x and 3000me/x - right about 500 Ω each channel.
Are there other ranges as well for the blob on clip bodies? So, how do we choose styli for the unknown numbers (like my 3000me/x) after we measure resistance? Just use what fits? Feed ‘em what’s on sale?
1 ) ~400 ohms = 4000D/I,II,III quad family, also 2000X and clones. 2000X model and clones all use S917E stylus.
2 ) ~500 ohms = 66 series and clones. Very close to 4000Ds electrically. Best styli are the S912E and S910E, but can also use 4000D/I,II,III styli.
3 ) ~1100 ohms = 2000E family and clones. Top stylus is S2000E/III.
4 ) ~1300 ohms = 2000Z and clones, use S915E styli of various colors*. Also the rare-ish Broadcast One, which accepts 2000E and similar styli.
*really a separate model incompatible with the others but using the blob-on-clip style
In the world of the blob-on-clip Empire cartridges, those are all the "real" families there are. Once measured, any, repeat: any blob/clip cartridge you find will fall into one of those families, and that determines which styli give flat response with the bodies in that family.
As for deciding which stylus in a model lineup is "best" (whatever that might mean to a given individual), the manufacturer usually gets to decide based on technical ability. At least that gets around all the subjectivity that we like to bat back and forth on audio forums.
Empire sometimes mislabeled their cartridges, having a particularly hard time keeping the 66 and successor 2000E families straight. Your 66QE/X got the secret update and is really (ie, electrically) another 2000E. Your 1000TE/X and 3000ME/X are both 66 clones.
2 ) ~500 ohms = 66 series and clones. Very close to 4000Ds electrically. Best styli are the S912E and S910E, but can also use 4000D/I,II,III styli.
3 ) ~1100 ohms = 2000E family and clones. Top stylus is S2000E/III.
4 ) ~1300 ohms = 2000Z and clones, use S915E styli of various colors*. Also the rare-ish Broadcast One, which accepts 2000E and similar styli.
*really a separate model incompatible with the others but using the blob-on-clip style
In the world of the blob-on-clip Empire cartridges, those are all the "real" families there are. Once measured, any, repeat: any blob/clip cartridge you find will fall into one of those families, and that determines which styli give flat response with the bodies in that family.
As for deciding which stylus in a model lineup is "best" (whatever that might mean to a given individual), the manufacturer usually gets to decide based on technical ability. At least that gets around all the subjectivity that we like to bat back and forth on audio forums.
Empire sometimes mislabeled their cartridges, having a particularly hard time keeping the 66 and successor 2000E families straight. Your 66QE/X got the secret update and is really (ie, electrically) another 2000E. Your 1000TE/X and 3000ME/X are both 66 clones.
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Thanks again, wualta! Exactly what I wanted to know.
That’s just weird that my 66QE/X isn’t a typical one. Why would it be labeld that way, when it specs like a 2000? Think it was done purposely by disgruntled or stoned employees? *_*
Did Empire just change the body specs mid production, and put a different stylus on ‘em to match, at the same time?
What is the internal difference that would make a particular stylus type sound best in a body of a given resistance? Something different in the cantilever or suspension? Please excuse me if it’s a dumb question..
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