anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

[tptodd]

Thanks for the measurements! I'm very puzzled/surprised by the inductance readings on those two 2000 bodies. The 2000E/III is one of those with 66-clone resistance, but this one has inductance 100mH below "normal" (or what my own measurements have led me to believe is normal), something that's only been reported once before and which I assumed was a typo. At that inductance, it jumps over into 4000D territory. As the numbers come in from owners, we'll have to see how common this is.
The 2000 body in the photo has the correct resistance for a 2000E family body, but the inductance is less than half what it should be, again down with the 4000Ds. If these measurements are accurate, we're up against inconsistency big enough and common enough to throw off our ability to reliably identify a body by resistance alone.

Yes, I had tried to point that out previously before I got the meter to check inductance. That is why I questioned consistency of stylus voicing in a model set over time. The 2000 came with translucent red or smoke stylus when I bought it from retail store in high school. Can't remember which one but spent most of it's life with smoke; apparently wrong. The 2000E/lll came with a white 66 stylus. Both claimed to be new and unused. So how about the last two QX2005 and 1000SE/X, I finally got that s/e/x part right; I'm sure someone is breathing easier - haha. Which styli for which body: 66 - red, white, purple; 2000 - smoke, red, green; 4000 - black aftermarket?????.........Thanks everyone

 

[wualta]

The only problem with the "consistency of stylus voicing in a model set over time" theory, if I understand you correctly, is that these outliers are still in the minority. In other words, they don't show intention or a pattern, simply an apparently-random inconsistency, which is bad enough even if it is a minority of samples.
But once we have inductance measurements, we go with them and match them with the "proper" styli... assuming we can even find any!
Which styli for which body? You have it right as far as colors go. Not sure what you meant by "black aftermarket", but the 4000D originals were indeed black, also yellow and white.

 

[desertrat748]

The last couple of days have been a wreck. But the dog wanted to go out at 4:00 this morning and I knew I wouldn't go back to sleep.

I am having a problem... I start to scan a post and end up reading and trying to digest them. I started an Excel spread sheet but have not found any measurements yet.

Should I list page#/Post# when I do find measurements so others can find them easily?

If they have a resistance listed, post it & I'll edit my list with it. If inductance listed, I'll use that too. It's all good. Yeah, I don't really want a spread sheet, just a quick guide/list to know what's going to work well for a stylus in a given cart. But as we see, it's always best to just measure anything before purchasing a stylus.

 

[desertrat748]

Yes, I had tried to point that out previously before I got the meter to check inductance. That is why I questioned consistency of stylus voicing in a model set over time. The 2000 came with translucent red or smoke stylus when I bought it from retail store in high school. Can't remember which one but spent most of it's life with smoke; apparently wrong. The 2000E/lll came with a white 66 stylus. Both claimed to be new and unused. So how about the last two QX2005 and 1000SE/X, I finally got that s/e/x part right; I'm sure someone is breathing easier - haha. Which styli for which body: 66 - red, white, purple; 2000 - smoke, red, green; 4000 - black aftermarket?????.........Thanks everyone

That 2000E/iii is definitely out of normal and having that white 66 stylus is probably perfect for it. Actually I have a 66 with almost the same numbers that the 2000E/iii is at, most likely it is a 66. And 66 is really close to a 4000 as pointed out earlier.

Which stylus for 66, I prefer and have had great luck with the black 4239-DEC from VOM (Gary),unless you have a real purple/white Empire S910E or S912E (one's purple,one's white but same specs). The 4239 PDE sounded way off for me, weak with no dynamics, almost like a pillow was in front of the speakers, but I think it was just a bad suspension/stylus.

I wouldn't use the clear aftermarket 4237 DET or even an original Empire in your 2000E/iii, it will sound too bright.

 

[desertrat748]

Thanks for the measurements! I'm very puzzled/surprised by the inductance readings on those two 2000 bodies. The 2000E/III is one of those with 66-clone resistance, but this one has inductance 100mH below "normal" (or what my own measurements have led me to believe is normal), something that's only been reported once before and which I assumed was a typo. At that inductance, it jumps over into 4000D territory. As the numbers come in from owners, we'll have to see how common this is.
The 2000 body in the photo has the correct resistance for a 2000E family body, but the inductance is less than half what it should be, again down with the 4000Ds. If these measurements are accurate, we're up against inconsistency big enough and common enough to throw off our ability to reliably identify a body by resistance alone.

The QX2005 and 1000SE/X show more-typical 2000E family measurements.

How about that 2000? Seriously 930 ohms but 250-260 mH inductance? I wonder what it sounds like with a true Empire 239 DEC or PDE, or even aftermarket 4239 DEC or PDE vs a 4237 DET? It would be fun to play with if something decent can be found.

And that 2000E/iii, wow that's screaming 66 or 4000 coils in a 2000E/iii body.

I guess it's always best to just pull out the meter and measure, and always ask someone to measure if they can before buying.... just saying. Btw, I'm using a Empire S910E in my 2000e/iii and it sounds a bit better (less harsh) on the treble end vs 4237 DET. Actually sounds decent without any tone adjustments running through an old Sansui receiver and a pair of Altec Lansing or through Sony 7506 headphones. That's telling with the 7506s.

DR

 

[wualta]

It would be fun to use that particular body as what I call a "tweaker". Plug different styli in it to see what sound comes out and whether it makes that big a difference. Ideally, I want to avoid having people who are unfamiliar with Empires to come away with the impression that "Empires are bright" or "Empires are dull", but that doesn't mean us old greybeards can't have fun playing around with "wrong" combinations and try for a pleasing result. For example, if a stylus is harsh, stick it in a higher-inductance body than it was intended for and don't look back. The differences are not huge, and in these times of stylus scarcity, we have to take what we can get and make it work.

My personal rule [of thumb, or big toe] is to always measure, and this applies to cartridge bodies from any manufacturer.

 

[tptodd]

That 2000E/iii is definitely out of normal and having that white 66 stylus is probably perfect for it. Actually I have a 66 with almost the same numbers that the 2000E/iii is at, most likely it is a 66. And 66 is really close to a 4000 as pointed out earlier.

Which stylus for 66, I prefer and have had great luck with the black 4239-DEC from VOM (Gary),unless you have a real purple/white Empire S910E or S912E (one's purple,one's white but same specs). The 4239 PDE sounded way off for me, weak with no dynamics, almost like a pillow was in front of the speakers, but I think it was just a bad suspension/stylus.

I wouldn't use the clear aftermarket 4237 DET or even an original Empire in your 2000E/iii, it will sound too bright.

Yes, Thank you. So would my best matches be 66 and 4000 styli with the first three bodies and 2000 series translucent styli with the last two. Isn't the 1000S/EX supposed to be a 66 clone? Thanks again

 

[boreas]

Yes, I had tried to point that out previously before I got the meter to check inductance. That is why I questioned consistency of stylus voicing in a model set over time.

Time as in for the length of its overall production life or over time as from date of manufacture to the present?

The 2000 came with translucent red or smoke stylus when I bought it from retail store in high school. Can't remember which one but spent most of it's life with smoke; apparently wrong

The smoke S2000 conical is the correct stylus for the 2000. The red S2000E elliptical is, as you would expect, for the 2000E, one rung higher than the 2000

The 2000E/lll came with a white 66 stylus.

White as in white or white as in clear (which is correct for the 2000E/III). White would probably be an S910E for the 66 series cartridges but, given the inductance you recorded for your example, the S910E would be the better choice.

Both claimed to be new and unused. So how about the last two QX2005 and 1000SE/X, I finally got that s/e/x part right; I'm sure someone is breathing easier - haha.

Those are solidly within the specs we've come to expect for the 2000 through 2000E/III

Which styli for which body: 66 - red, white, purple; 2000 - smoke, red, green; 4000 - black aftermarket?????.........Thanks everyone

Not exactly sure what you're asking but here goes. For the 66, the red S906 is the base conical, white is the S910E elliptical, next to the top, and purple S912E, the top of the line elliptical. For the 2000 series, the smoke S2000 is the base conical, the red S2000E is the base elliptical and the green S2000E/I is the next highest elliptical. A black stylus for the 4000 series CD4 cartridges, either OEM or aftermarket, would be the S4000D/I.

 

[tptodd]

I am asking in relation to the measurements of my bodies. I do possess all the OEM styli I mentioned. The exeption being the 4000D/l being A'pis brand aftermarket. The only specs I can get on that one is elliptical and VTF spec. Emailed the company long ago and have heard nothing. Got it from a guy in Japan. He wanted $250 or b/o. Got it for $50. Appears that is about retail according to A'pis web site.
Desertrat thank for the heads up for the VOM 4239 DEC. Also BTW do Russell 66 series have the © on them like the OEM pig noses?

 

[desertrat748]

Yes, Thank you. So would my best matches be 66 and 4000 styli with the first three bodies and 2000 series translucent styli with the last two. Isn't the 1000S/EX supposed to be a 66 clone? Thanks again

Your 1000 SE/X is measuring out as a 2000E/ iii body. It may sound fine with a 66 stylus like a 4239 DEC or PDE. But I’m thinking that you should start with the 4237 DET clear one,

 

[tptodd]

A shout out to Boreas also. Thank you. So as I was thinking all my blobs except QX2005 and 2000x measure wacky

 

[desertrat748]

It would be fun to use that particular body as what I call a "tweaker". Plug different styli in it to see what sound comes out and whether it makes that big a difference. Ideally, I want to avoid having people who are unfamiliar with Empires to come away with the impression that "Empires are bright" or "Empires are dull", but that doesn't mean us old greybeards can't have fun playing around with "wrong" combinations and try for a pleasing result. For example, if a stylus is harsh, stick it in a higher-inductance body than it was intended for and don't look back. The differences are not huge, and in these times of stylus scarcity, we have to take what we can get and make it work.

My personal rule of thumb is to always measure, and this applies to cartridge bodies from any manufacturer.

Walt you had me bust out laughing; yes old graybeards true true. I don’t have my high frequency hearing like I did when I was 18, hence my Tolerance to slightly bright carts/stylus combos and easy for me to address as most tone controls at that end are right near my limit.

I would love to play with that cart too. Maybe we can go hunting and see if one is close to that.

No truer words spoken about “measure” with Empire. Can’t ever assume with them.

 

[boreas]

I am asking in relation to the measurements of my bodies. I do possess all the OEM styli I mentioned. The exeption being the 4000D/l being A'pis brand aftermarket. The only specs I can get on that one is elliptical and VTF spec. Emailed the company long ago and have heard nothing. Got it from a guy in Japan. He wanted $250 or b/o. Got it for $50. Appears that is about retail according to A'pis web site.
Desertrat thank for the heads up for the VOM 4239 DEC. Also BTW do Russell 66 series have the © on them like the OEM pig noses?

No, only genuine Empires have that. Aftermarket pignoses don't have that C. Also the two "nostrils" are flattened on the aftermarket and hemispheric on the originals.

 

[tptodd]

No, only genuine Empires have that. Aftermarket pignoses don't have that C. Also the two "nostrils" are flattened on the aftermarket and hemispheric on the originals.

Good info! And yea for me re: my 66 series styli. My best decription when you get the Empire body/stylus combo right is "real". Breathing, living real vs dry, analytical real. I also have several chunkies. My best stylus for them is S44E . The lowly S100S can also give very good sound and make a beat up record sing.

 

[desertrat748]

I’m rolling with a 2000Z and original Empire stylus right now as we speak. You tp have the best description of what Empire sounds like with actual Empire styli.

It’s nice when you get a quaility cart,stylus, table all set as well as it can be with a nice preamp. With Empire it’s all about finding an original stylus. Some aftermarket are okay but I’m used to a 2000Z cart now and all I ever do now is adjust for particular records and now I’m just enjoying the music each day.

Now I have time to mess around with other brands and maybe I can top this, maybe I can’t. Rolling Stones Sticky Fingers...”Can you hear me knocking “ sounding absolutely perfect...

 

[Grainger49]

My spreadsheet has a place for inductance and resistance. I'm moving forward.

 

[desertrat748]

My spreadsheet has a place for inductance and resistance. I'm moving forward.

That’s awesome! I’m going to keep adding more to the list. What’s going to be hard for your spread sheet (and basically why I didn’t want to try and avg. them) is when someone measuring a 2000E/iii and has 1/2 or less the inductance of what is normally found. The numbers will throw the average way off and skew it so badly that the information is not worth anything.

You should try using something else like the mode, or median. I’m thinking median as measured values are not going to be the same as different meters and such.

For the list I have going I’m going to put the carts where they belong according to the inductance 1st, resistance 2nd as today I’ve seen it all with a 2000 body measuring approx 1000 ohms, 250mH ! Seriously no joke. That’s heading over to the 66 or 4000 group carts. And then a 2000E/iii with 550 ohms and 240mH. Seriously throwing a wrench into the game for trying to figure out what is what with Empire.

If you toss those numbers in your spreadsheet for those particular model carts, you’ll kill your average and it will definitely not represent the “Arithmetic average”. You should probably use the geometric average or better yet, the harmonic average (no puns intended on that) even though you will get a lower average (mean) than with The arithmetic average, your data won’t be nearly as cute with any kind of outliers. Guess who used to teach statistics and probability? Three guesses!

 

[desertrat748]

Good info! And yea for me re: my 66 series styli. My best decription when you get the Empire body/stylus combo right is "real". Breathing, living real vs dry, analytical real. I also have several chunkies. My best stylus for them is S44E . The lowly S100S can also give very good sound and make a beat up record sing.

2 things. One, is it possible to measure that 2000E/iii and the 2000 body carts again just to double check?

Two, if you have all original Empire styli for your carts, use them according to the inductance and see how they sound. They should be really decent.

 

[tptodd]

2 things. One, is it possible to measure that 2000E/iii and the 2000 body carts again just to double check?

Two, if you have all original Empire styli for your carts, use them according to the inductance and see how they sound. They should be really decent.

Yes I will remeasure shortly. I have remeasured over and over already. Just think I and many others were buying styli purely by model stated on the blobs...tssk tssk.

 

[tptodd]

Read um and weep redux pt l