anyone else running vintage Empire carts?

[desertrat748]

Russ,

Totally understand that... I’m not saying anything against what you are hearing... I know my EXL - 20 and one of the 66 clones are definitely more dynamic than my Z cart. Not sure I would even say a subtle difference.. more bass with them and punch.

I’m most able to notice the difference between them with a good preamp and headphones. I’m less able to hear the difference between them when running just speakers (even decent ones) and maybe an old receiver. All sound great with original Empire styli.

Rock on my Empire brother! Enjoy!

dr

 

[bobins08]

I totally agree DR, the 2000Z is extremely balanced and has great separation and has the classic Empire "open stage".
And believe me, my comments were not aimed at discounting the capabilities of the Z, it's a great cart with the original stylus.
But after listening to the 440D and the 999VE/X, (to me) they sounded deeper/richer in tone and depth. And all the classic ear marks of Empire were also present....Balance, separation,open stage. To me, they were truly an inspirational experience.

Do you know how the 66 series compare to the 999 series?

There is a 999II-ME/X that is apparently uses 66 type styli (a 66 clone). Does that particular model sound like a 66 or a like a 999?

Thanks, Bob

 

[boreas]

Some 999s, like the 999XE/X are 66 clones. Others are 2000 thru 2000E/III clones, but I believe the 999II-ME/X is a clone of the 66E/X.

There are so many inconsistencies on the Empire numbering system that it's pointless to attempt to draw any conclusions from them. For instance, and as you doubtlessly know, the 2000E, 2000X and 2000Z are all different from one another.

The number 999 is an especially confused state of affairs with it being used in the designation used for at least four different cartridge types both in terms of electrical specifications and physical characteristics so "Does it sound like a 66 or like a 999" is an unanswerable question but, fitted with the appropriate stylus, 66 clones sound like 66s fitted with the same stylus.

 

[wualta]

RE the 66es and the 1971 999s: an interesting bit to ponder is the close electrical (inductical) relation between the bodies of the 999TE/X (and all the models below it) and the 66 series. We have an official inductance spec for the TE/X: 350mH. Does that number sound familiar? It's the number that keeps coming up as the inductance for the 66es except for the earliest ones (although I'm bound to mention that we still don't have an official inductance spec for the 66 series, and we NEED one so bad).
So if you could stick the same stylus in a 66 and in one of the round-hole 999s, you'd get.. the same sound, assuming everything else (VTA, VTF, etc etc) was kept the same. Trouble is, you cannot so stick. But the moral of the story is clear: It's all down to the stylus. Empire was already doing pretty good work with the 1971 lineup, so what did they improve, if anything, with the 66es? Only one that I can think of: the ability to provide, via mounting clips of differing heights, differing VTAs during a time of VTA flux (15° to 20° and beyond). Think of it this way: it coulda been worse.

The 999s had the little tilt insert doodad that kinda did the same thing, though with a weight and height penalty.

 

[desertrat748]

I think I have about 5 various 66 e/x or clones. They all vary a little on the low inductance side of things. As Walt points out, it's all down to the stylus. I find them a little more dynamic than some of the other Empires in the 2000 series or the chunky model I have. I don't have a 999 to compare but I imagine it will be very close with similar inductance and stylus. I notice really nice bass response with the 66 REX and very detailed.

They ( the 66 and clones) can be found for cheap and if you find a genuine Empire stylus for it, who knows, you probably will like it. Edit: I find the 66 and clones a bargain buy on Ebay or where ever. Most don't know that they measure up with just as well as some other models that go for 2-3 times the amount.

 

[vwestlife]

Maybe this was already asked and answered in the 200+ pages of this thread, but I noticed that Empire Scientific / Audio Empire was originally based in Garden City, Long Island, NY -- only about 8 miles away from Stanton's original home in Plainview, Long Island. Was this just a coincidence, or was Empire founded by ex-Stanton employees? Especially since they both made moving iron (induced magnet) cartridges...

 

[wualta]

They both made both kinds of cartridges, but the question is interesting nonetheless. Was NYC a hotbed of cartridge design and manufacture in the '50s and '60s?

Speaking of '60s Empires, has anyone tried the NOS 808 stylus being sold on eBay for $12.45 shipped? The 808s were cost-reduced versions of the 888s. When HiFi/Stereo Review (as it was then called) tested it in 1967, the stylus needed 3g, but that shouldn't faze any of our broadminded, modern à-go-go type Empire fans. The interesting detail is the foam (for damping? to support the canti at high VTF? both?) stuffed in the insertion tube, surrounding the "magnetic cone" rear end of the cantilever.

 

[desertrat748]

They both made both kinds of cartridges, but the question is interesting nonetheless. Was NYC a hotbed of cartridge design and manufacture in the '50s and '60s?

Speaking of '60s Empires, has anyone tried the NOS 808 stylus being sold on eBay for $12.45 shipped? The 808s were cost-reduced versions of the 888s. When HiFi/Stereo Review (as it was then called) tested it in 1967, the stylus needed 3g, but that shouldn't faze any of our broadminded, modern go-go-type Empire fans. The interesting detail is the foam (for damping? to support the canti at high VTF? both?) stuffed in the insertion tube, surrounding the "magnetic cone" rear end of the cantilever.
View attachment 1298570

My guess is for damping. Empire had a patent on dampening FWIW.

All aftermarket I’ve had seem to be a little bit harsh in the high end, too bright. Maybe someone fixed it up some? Not a bad idea if it is the case.

 

[wualta]

In any case, $12.45 shipped for a NOS Empire stylus, however cost-reduced... it's at least tempting.

 

[russdall]

Do you know how the 66 series compare to the 999 series?

Bob, To make the Empire world even more delightfully confusing, I offer this;

In less than a year, I have amassed quite a few of Empire cartridges and almost every stylus mentioned in this thread. ( to my wife's dismay ) LOL
And as it's been said by many "in the know" it's all about the "stylus" with Empire and hopefully an original, for best results.
I've been extremely lucky enough to have obtained, several Empire 66es, a 999 XE/X, 2000E III, 999 VE/X, 440D and a 2000Z with original styli, plus the original styli that have been offered by Gary at VOM and other places.
If you look back in this thread, you'll notice I've offered (probably an over dramatic ) opinion on many of these cartridges. But at the time....( and still ) I was/and am amazed by the sound quality they produce. The whole "vinyl world" and it's process, still blows my mind to this day. And to think that an "almost deaf' Thomas Edison not only invented it, but also perfected it when he was almost totally deaf. ( a trip to the Thomas Edison winter home/museum in Fort Myers, Florida....is a must for bucket list )

But I digress; To me IMMHO, what adds even another twist in the Empire "scenario", is the pressing and process of available LPs. Any one of these cart/styli combos might sound fantastic on one LP and not so great with another. It actually seems to me....that the older carts sound "deeper/richer" on original 70s era records and not so much on the newer/remastered types.
Then of course there is one's entire system to consider, as a listening media. I exclusively listen to an "open speaker" system, driven by a Kenwood KR-9940 with Pioneer CS-R700 speakers. (which I have 4 of).

To me when being asked "which Empire sounds better than the other" ? The endless combinations of carts/styli......stereo equipment......different LP types, all start jumping around in my head.

BUT, I'll give you my best solid answer........I love them all, They are kinda like my own kids......They all bring something to the table that enriches my life.

 

[MisterDK]

Finally got around to trying out a new, genuine Empire S912E “flipper” -with bumper removed- on my 8000 LSX III body (which I think is a 2000X clone). Had been using a Pfanstiel packaged 239-pde on it that was supposedly a genuine Empire (pignose style), but may actually have been a generic. That one sounded good, but I think this flipper that I believe to be genuine Empire, as it came on a NOS/NIB 2004 cartridge, sounds just a -little- smoother. It’s close though ‘cause that Pfanstiehl packaged 239-pde sounded very good. Its package was printed made by Empire on the back, but the stylus grip had no “©” on it.
I’ll keep this combo spinning for a couple weeks - then I’ll rotate my “bumblebee” EXL 30 on.

 

[desertrat748]

So I am sad. I’m moving homes and my brother decided to move my turntable without even asking me about it.. 2000Z w one of my new real Empire stylus from Gary was destroyed. He didn’t notice that the tonearm was not secure and it was just flopping around as it was moved! Ugh! I’m down to one more new one and then I m done.

Is there anyway someone could retip it?
I’m not sure but it skated across the Grand Funk album and won’t track. Sounds scratchy and as though it has lost the tip of the diamond?

Very sad as I paint up as I move. On goes the Rivertone-1 and I will risk the $12 with my younger brother

 

[russdall]

2000Z w one of my new real Empire stylus from Gary was destroyed

Oh Man! DR, So sorry to hear about this......That "totally Sux"

I'll have to check my stock, but I believe I got 2 or 3 of Gary's 239-DET's when he had them before. Let us know if ya need a hand here.

 

[MisterDK]

So I am sad...I’m not sure but it skated across the Grand Funk album and won’t track. Sounds scratchy and as though it has lost the tip of the diamond?..

Death by Grand Funk. Ouch! That is painful.

Reminds me of when I bought my Planar 3 brand new in ‘86-‘87. Bought an Ortofon X5-MC along with it. It sounded awesome - for two weeks. A friend came over with his 3 year old who wanted to make the music play when the record ended - and we happened to be in another room..
The entire cantilever had mysteriously disappeared.

 

[bobins08]

Bob, To make the Empire world even more delightfully confusing, I offer this;

In less than a year, I have amassed quite a few of Empire cartridges and almost every stylus mentioned in this thread. ( to my wife's dismay ) LOL
And as it's been said by many "in the know" it's all about the "stylus" with Empire and hopefully an original, for best results.
I've been extremely lucky enough to have obtained, several Empire 66es, a 999 XE/X, 2000E III, 999 VE/X, 440D and a 2000Z with original styli, plus the original styli that have been offered by Gary at VOM and other places.
If you look back in this thread, you'll notice I've offered (probably an over dramatic ) opinion on many of these cartridges. But at the time....( and still ) I was/and am amazed by the sound quality they produce. The whole "vinyl world" and it's process, still blows my mind to this day. And to think that an "almost deaf' Thomas Edison not only invented it, but also perfected it when he was almost totally deaf. ( a trip to the Thomas Edison winter home/museum in Fort Myers, Florida....is a must for bucket list )

But I digress; To me IMMHO, what adds even another twist in the Empire "scenario", is the pressing and process of available LPs. Any one of these cart/styli combos might sound fantastic on one LP and not so great with another. It actually seems to me....that the older carts sound "deeper/richer" on original 70s era records and not so much on the newer/remastered types.
Then of course there is one's entire system to consider, as a listening media. I exclusively listen to an "open speaker" system, driven by a Kenwood KR-9940 with Pioneer CS-R700 speakers. (which I have 4 of).

To me when being asked "which Empire sounds better than the other" ? The endless combinations of carts/styli......stereo equipment......different LP types, all start jumping around in my head.

BUT, I'll give you my best solid answer........I love them all, They are kinda like my own kids......They all bring something to the table that enriches my life.

Thanks for the info.

My return to Empire is very recent. I have been in a mood to swap cartridges quite a bit lately. I enjoy learning the House sounds of vintage cartridges, or in this case revisiting.

I have a 2000e/ III body with the Empire 237-D7C conical on it. I like it quite a bite. Conical are easy to set up, forgiving with lesser quality vinyl and they sound full with good body. This conical, like my Shure conical, to me falls short in the upper register detail. Overall it’s very nice and was well worth the cost.

This week I should be receiving a Empire 237-DET from TVOM. I expect a big jump in sound quality with it over the conical. I had a 2000e/I back in high school, like about 1975-76 timeframe. Loved it.

I also bought the 239-PDE from TVOM. I don’t have a cartridge for it yet. This is why I am asking about the 66 series. I have a line on a 999II- ME/X. I will make sure the 239-PDE fits, then buy it if it does. Otherwise I’ll keep looking.

Most people don’t buy the stylus before the cartridge body but in this case, given the rarity of the stylus, it seemed smart.

I will be busy demo’ing vintage Empire for awhile.

I get your point on system synergy and record quality. All important when evaluating sound.

I’ll post my findings after listening for awhile.

Cheers, Bob

 

[wualta]

2000Z destruction is not nice. Is the cantilever unbent, just the diamond that's gone? and can you get $$ out of your brother to pay for a re-tip job (or a new stylus)? hope so.

The 999-II MEX photo I found online has a sticker and a black stylus, so my bets are heavily on it being a 66 clone.

 

[boreas]

Bob, in your quest for a 66 body, there's a brace of 66LE/Xs on eBay right now. Or you could ask russdall for the measurements on the 5000/XEI he's selling.

 

[russdall]

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index....esistance-for-2000-style-bodies.827938/page-4

 

[MRL_Audio]

Thought I toss this out. For anyone owning the Empire 875XLT (Azden made) there is a few NOS available on the bay under the Azden AN-P50VL name. These are near impossible to find and the seller knows that based on the price but you won't find them anywhere else. One of the truly great PMount MM cartridges.

 

[desertrat748]

Death by Grand Funk. Ouch! That is painful.

Reminds me of when I bought my Planar 3 brand new in ‘86-‘87. Bought an Ortofon X5-MC along with it. It sounded awesome - for two weeks. A friend came over with his 3 year old who wanted to make the music play when the record ended - and we happened to be in another room..
The entire cantilever had mysteriously disappeared.

"Well my baby, she's alright,
Well my baby, she's clean out-of-sight.
Don't you know that she's... She's some kind of wonderful.
She's some kind of wonderful... Yes she is..."

Wualta "2000Z destruction is not nice. Needlestein's worth contacting about a retip. Is the cantilever unbent, just the diamond that's gone?"

Walt, Just the tip of the diamond is gone. Looks as though there is still some diamond base left though. I'll try getting in touch with Needlestein .. Vendor here? Contact info?