Apple AirPort Express vs Everything else.

[Jpete9]

Has anyone compared an Apple Airport Express to any of these 'known' DACs?

Ken Rockwell thinks they are pretty great and has some science and experienced ear to back it up.

http://www.kenrockwell.com/apple/airport-express-audio-quality-2014.htm

But curious to hear what an observer hears in their home system and how it compares to dedicate audio gear?

Considering some of the features: price, lossless wireless audio, convenience. Why isnt it widely used? Has it been overlooked?

 

[hjames]

Upstairs system: I use the optical out of an Airport Express to feed a Audio Alchemy DD3 Dac that feeds a Jolida integrated tube amp and Von schweikert VR-4 speakers.

Downstairs system: I use the optical out of an Airport Express to feed a Emotiva XCR-2 Dac that feeds an Integra Processor that feeds a B&K power amp & UREI speakers.

Back porch system: I use the mini-stereo phone jack out of any Airport Express to feed a Harman Kardon Boombox.
(Just kidding, but the back porch system is about access to all my music & I'm not so worried about Sound Quality here...)

General info - roughly 50,000 tracks in iTunes as media, the majority are in lossless format and may as well be the original CDs playing.
Bonus - I can use my phone as a remote control to select songs or playlists.

Overall impressions. The downstairs has a low ceiling and while the gear quite is nice, the room is no great shakes for "premium"listening experience. Mostly movies and TV use.
The upstairs has a cathedral ceiling and a lot of plants, and is an fantastic room for any gear I bring in there. Basically its an awesome sound space.
Love the sound there, and 90% of my listening there is through the Airport Express and the DAC - very very nice combo.

I tried a couple other DACs on the upstairs system and if there was no specific sense of improvement, they went back for a refund.
Audio Alchemy is mostly out of the consumer business, this DAC is nice because I feed one input (optical) from the Airport Express,
and can feed another input (coaxial) from my Oppo disc player when I want to play a CD or HDCD through it.
The Oppo can decode SACDs so I run them directly to the Jolida preamp in ...

 

[rogerfederer]

Jitter is supposed to be an issue with airport express, more so with later generations. I have several in similar setup to what heather described. Also using Apple TV for audio streaming.

I just picked up a monarchy DIP to go between an Apple TV and an emotiva DAC. Tightened up the sound and reduced noise floor. Now looking for more DIPs.

Makes sense if you want to whole house streaming.

 

[MCM_Fan]

All the responses so far are spot on. The Airport Express can provide a quality streaming experience, but the built-in DAC is pretty meh. It's not horrible, but you can do better. The advantage to the Airport Express is it's easy to set up and works well with other Apple products (iTunes, Macs, IPhones, and iPads). That makes it a simple solution for users of other Apple products.

My Airport Express journey started about three and half years ago. My girlfriend wanted a stereo for her place - small cottage in the woods on her parent's farm. She just wanted something that was easy to use that would let her stream iTunes from her iPad and iPhone. So, I bought her an Airport Express and an inexpensive FiiO D3 DAC. I gave her an NAD 7025 receiver and a pair of Polk RTi28 speakers and hooked it all up for her. It's been running flawlessly ever since and was exactly what she wanted. She's very happy with it.

Prior to hooking it up for her, I gave it a test listen at my place, and while you can hook the Airport Express up directly to the RCA inputs of any amp or receiver using a standard 3.5mm mini to RCA Y-adapter cable, the sound quality can be improved significantly with the use on an external DAC- even the little $25 FiiO D3 is an improvement over the Airport Express' internal DAC. The key is you need Toslink to mini optical cable that plugs into the same jack on the back of the Airport Express as the standard 3.5mm mini - RCA cable. However, the optical cable bypasses the Airport Express' internal DAC allowing you to use it with a higher quality, better sounding external DAC.

My youngest daughter liked this set up so much, she wanted a similar one for her bedroom. So, same Airport Express/FiiO D3 combination for her, plus a Sansui 221 receiver and a pair of Monitor Audio Bronze bookshelf speakers = another happy customer.

I finally broke down and ripped all my CDs in lossless format to an old Mac Mini I picked up cheap on craigslist. I added a Cambridge DACMagic 100 and use that in my master bedroom system, but it also serves as a music server for my entire home. I purchased two more (used) Airport Expresses, one for the guest bedroom and one for the downstairs system. However, be aware that the jitter problems with the newer Airport Express models are real. Because of this, they don't play well with all external DACs. The Cambridge DACMagic 100 I received as Christmas gift two and a half years ago is completely unusable with the Airport Express - so it stays tethered to the Mac Mini through a USB cable. The guest bedroom system uses another of the cheap FiiO D3 DACS (for now), but the best sound I've gotten out of an Airport Express to date is by pairing it with a Schiit Modi 2 Uber in my main downstairs system (using one of the Toslink - mini optical cables as described above). This combination works great and I highly recommend it if you plan to go the Airport Express route.

In fact, now I'm thinking about upgrading the downstairs system to the new Schiit Modi Multibit and moving the Modi 2 Uber into the guest bedroom system.

Probably not the most cost effective system, but easy to set up and plays nice with iTunes and other Apple products. Sounds great when paired with a compatible external DAC (like the Schiit products). It's very easy to control from any iPhone or IPad, but I also stream from my Lenovo laptop running Windows10 when at my girlfriend's place. I also like the convenience of being able to pull out my iPhone and control the music to all three home systems from anywhere in the house.

And I like Heather's idea of streaming to her porch through an Airport Express. I finished a patio at the girlfriend's place a couple months ago and plan to add some outdoor speakers and a small integrated amp (in a covered area) and will add another Airport Express (and probably a FiiO D3 Dac,, maybe not). This system won't be built for ultimate sound quality, just a convenient way to stream some tunes outdoors while cooking out and relaxing on the patio.

 

[Jpete9]

Ken is only known in the photography world, not in the audio world. I take any reviews like that with a grain of salt.

http://www.creativebloq.com/hardware/airplay-vs-sonos-12121441

http://www.digitaltrends.com/media-streamer-reviews/apple-airport-express-review/

http://hometheaterhifi.com/technical/technical-reviews/optimize-wifi-network-stream-music-airplay/

Also they are more expensive (per Apple 2X the price) than any other comparable extender.

AEX has three issues when it comes to audio:
1. The hosting device that streams to it has to be always on, consuming battery or be connected to the mains to avoid that. And I don't know how it can be used in combination with a NAS, it probably can't.
2. Multiple room streaming via multiple AEX devices is limited to the same music in all rooms.
3. Since it uses the hub and spoke WiFi architecture, music play isn't as stable as it is from the Sonos dedicated WiFi layer that works in peer to peer mode wherever possible.

Thanks, i am not worried about the Wifi Architecture, just sound quality.

The first link doesnt talk about Sound Quality very much and the other 2 articles are about an older/different product.

Ken's opinion was interesting, but the tests he performed and the data he presents shows that electrically, the sound reproduction is near perfect. My question is. Can anyone confirm or have they tested and observed this not to be true.

I have one and compared to running a decent quality cable direct from my latest MBP and playing Marvin Gaye's Lets get it on ALC from HDtracks. There is no difference on my system. my system is very modest, maybe this means the shortcomings are more noticeable once you move to a higher quality system?

As an experiment i will buy a DAC and use the AirPort Express to stream to it and i will try a direct cable. Now to find an affordable and yet still useful DAC

And. You either posted this exact post word for word somewhere else, or you lifted it? http://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...499992829b66fb89cd407621af2&p=37877#post37877

hjames: What happens to your audio quality where you run your AirPort Express directly into your Valve amp? Is it genuinely different/poorer/betterer ?

There is a number of models, the one we are discussing here is

Model A1392 / MC414LL/A

Many thanks, very interesting.

 

[elcoholic]

I had 3 or 4 Airport Expresses. One by one they either crapped out due to failure or obsolescence due to firmware updates they were to old for. The SQ was great for whole house music. I didn't use them for serious listening. In terms of service life - the most disappointing Apple products I've owned going back to my 3rd gen 4 button iPod.

 

[uofmtiger]

AEX has three issues when it comes to audio:
1. The hosting device that streams to it has to be always on, consuming battery or be connected to the mains to avoid that. And I don't know how it can be used in combination with a NAS, it probably can't.
2. Multiple room streaming via multiple AEX devices is limited to the same music in all rooms.
3. Since it uses the hub and spoke WiFi architecture, music play isn't as stable as it is from the Sonos dedicated WiFi layer that works in peer to peer mode wherever possible.

1. It can be used with a NAS. I have a Synology NAS and their music software has AirPlay built in.

2. Using the Synology NAS you can stream different music to different rooms. Not sure why anyone wants to do this, but it is easy with Synology's software.

3. This was a big deal at one point. New routers ( though there are a lot of people using archaic routers from the past) have solved it from my experience. However, the Airport Express has an Ethernet port, so if you are using a Synology NAS as the streaming device, everything can be done over Ethernet.

The Airport Express isn't advertised, has tons of competition (AirPlay is built into most receivers), and there are knock offs with AirPlay available for less money that also have features like DLNA ( also many would rather have the Appletv since it also does video). Apple doesn't charge enough for it to be a blip on their radar. I have talked about it a ton on this site, but sometimes actual user experience gets lost in the incorrect or incomplete statements by frequent posters.

Stereophile has measurements of the earlier Airport Express. The analog output has jitter, but they said it was resolved by using the optical output. I mainly use mine with DACs, but I have setups that use the analog outs, too. I have never compared them in the same system.

 

[Rex81]

I seem to have a different opinion than others here, but mine is backed up by a number of truly blind listening tests.

The analog out (DAC) on the AE is excellent. Better than all 3 external DACs I've put it up against: Emotiva XDA2 ($300), Emotiva DC-1 ($500), DSPeaker Anit-mode 2.0 ($1,200). And these DACs are no slouches.

All were auditioned in a truly blind test with matched levels, switching from analog out from the AE directly into the amp, to optical out into each DAC, then out to the amp. On almost every pick, the AE was chosen as the winner. Just last week my entire audio club did a blind test against the $1,200 DSPeaker. Everyone agreed the AE sounded better. So I sold off all my DACs and just use the AE analog into my tube integrated. The sound is fuller, more dynamic, and better resolved.

According to my research, if you're just counting sound quality, the Airport Express is a killer. There are other things to consider as noted above (constant on, Airplay requires strong wi-fi infrastructure and drains device battery). I also have a Chromecast Audio which requires a lesser wi-fi network and integrates better in a non-Apple environment with no battery drain. But I would want to use an external DAC with it. With the AE, it doesn't get any simpler. I only stream Tidal Hi-Fi, so the AE is my only source and my DAC. So I have the AE to my integrated to my speakers. Simple signal path, limited amount of cables to degrade the sound. Sounds amazing. For me it's perfect.

Hope this helps.

 

[CKDC]

I have recently been doing some listening to compare the Airport Express versus wired with Tidal.

Ipad - AE -Grant Fidelity Tube DAC from my iPad is convenient but I prefer the sound of MacBook - usb - Tube DAC which is much richer and detailed.

I am awaiting cables to see if the iPad wired straight to the dac is any better or worse than the MacBook.

 

[Markoneswift]

Just thought I would chime in here. I'm a long time user of firstly a 1st gen Apple TV and more recently an Airport Express (we decommissioned some from our work infrastructure so I nabbed one). My decision to grab one was based largely on the review by Mr Rockwell (I find his photography reviews generally pretty on-the-money) and I have to say I'm really glad I grabbed it. I'm no critical listener but to me, the AEX sounds as sweet as any other digital source I've heard - in my case, I'm running the 3.5 jack out into a LINE input on my Yammy R-S700. It certainly equals and probably betters a 4th gen Ipod Touch which I play lossless content on via Yamahas' own dedicated Apple dock.

I'd like to add a note about the AEX that some of you will be aware of but others maybe not. You can use an AEX in a Windows world too, you do not need Mac at all to stream to it. I use a brilliant piece of software called Airfoil for Windows which captures any audio stream from a Windows device and converts it to an Airplay stream. It then broadcasts it out over your network to any compatible device that it finds. It's so good, it's one of the few software packages that I have ever actually purchased

 

[elcoholic]

+1 for Airfoil and Soundflower - great apps from Rogue Amoeba - I'd use them to stream vinyl throughout the house when I had 4 systems on AEX's.

 

[hjames]

I've used different models over the years but these are the newest model, I believe.
With the newer Apple OS you don't need Rogue Amoeba any more - its baked into the OS now!
Click on the speaker symbol on your dock and just pick where you want your mac to send it to ...
LineOut, or to one of your Airport Express devices!
I sent the audio from the Lockn streaming show the other day down to my Jolida tube system and listened from there - very nice!

 

[Markoneswift]

Bet that AEX gets a bit toasty sandwiched in there

And get that dust cover polished !!

 

[Jpete9]

I dont have another DAC to compare. I have the Model A1392 / MC414LL/A AE via 3.5mm to RCA Line input and its simple and reliable. I also use it for wifi in my house. One day i'll try and borrow one, but not likely to buy one until i can find a fault with these.

I've tried using my 2016 MBP via a nice audio cable, vs AirPlay to AE - there is no difference to my ears.

 

[Rex81]

I've tried using my 2016 MBP via a nice audio cable, vs AirPlay to AE - there is no difference to my ears.

The DACs inside most Apple devices are quite well implemented, in my opinion. And if people are playing 256kbps lossy files from iTunes or something, they're not likely to hear much of a difference using an outboard DAC as opposed to just going line out with an analog cable.

My experience is limited to the 3 DACs I mentioned, but I suspect that if someone prefers using the optical out of the AE to an outboard DAC that's less than, say $500, rather than just using analog out, it's likely just confirmation bias. Our brain expects an outboard DAC to be better than the one that's internal to the $100 router/streaming device, and so it tricks us into thinking that it is.

I'm sure there are DACs out there that can better the one inside the AE, I just haven't heard one yet.

I encourage others to have a friend or significant other set up a blind test for you. I think a number of people will be selling their DACs.

 

[Jpete9]

I tried using 320kps mp3, 256aac, 96/24 ALC from HDTracks (supposedly mastered from the tapes at this res). There is no difference on my modest system using latest MBP or AE.

 

[CKDC]

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that music streamed wirelessly through an airport express is better than hard wired through a moderately priced dac?

Have I got that right?

That is not what I have found but am happy to explore more listening.

 

[Rex81]

If I am reading this correctly, you are saying that music streamed wirelessly through an airport express is better than hard wired through a moderately priced dac?

Have I got that right?

That is not what I have found but am happy to explore more listening.

I think Jpete is saying that he hears no difference between the analog out on the Airport Express or the analog out on the MacBook Pro.

I'm saying that using the analog out of the Airport Express (using it's internal DAC) sounds better than using optical out of the Airport Express into the outboard DACs that I've tried.

But as with any audio comparison, blind testing is the only way to compare this stuff properly. It's really easy for our brains to prefer the expensive gear (especially if we bought it!) even if it's not actually better.

 

[Rex81]

Right, the newer AE is known to have high jitter, which could be interpreted as having a less than favorable optical out in the first place. Of course, there's the argument that jitter of that magnitude isn't audible anyway, but that's a whole other argument...

I guess the point is, one might be able to argue that comparing the AE's analog out to an outboard DAC using the AE's digital out might not be a fair fight due to it's potentially subpar optical out.

Oh, and I forgot to mention: There's no point in comparing 96/24 (or any hi-res) through an AE because it is only capable of playing up to Redbook quality (44.1khz 16bit). Another potential drawback.

 

[Rex81]

The AE serves my purposes perfectly now, as I only stream Tidal Hi-Fi (redbook). But I expect MQA to be coming soon, hopefully to Tidal (fingers crossed) so I expect the AE is only a temporary solution. I'm looking into a Bluesound Node 2. I understand Bluesound recently released a firmware update to all it's products to allow full MQA decoding. Now, the Bluesound Node 2 is $500 vs $100 for the AE, but it's more future proof. And the DAC in there is supposed to be pretty damn good.