Back-loaded horn

Gentlemen

There are many ways to achieve a common result. In this case, enhanced replay / musical enjoyment. If that were not the case, or our fate should some computer geek replicate the sound of my SET into a chip, we would all be listening to identical systems. This would not be a good thing and I'm happy that technology hasn't advanced to the point that we can't (still) enjoy the designs of people like Mr. Cain and Dr. Edgar. Personally, that is one of the facinations of musical (Hi-End) replay; that we can associate wth those individuals that share common values and have implimented those into a design that embellishes our music, system and vision. Like umbilicals reaching between minds.

Unfortunately, I've not had the pleasure of sampling either of the two gentlemen's creations, nor even many of their contemporaries. This is something I would to correct as I wish to explore alternative speaker types to mate with my 45 SET. Interestingly, BOTH products are on my wish list of components to audition. At this point - not having heard many horns or single-drivers - I can't comment in depth on the benefits of either approach or even as to my personal preference. What I will say is that based on my research on the subject both are valid approaches and have many advocates within our small circle enthusiasts. I believe that both designs could provide a telling and completely satisfactory experience depending on the accompanying system, coupled with the unique replay and musical preference of the respective listener.

MikE
 
Alan----I made a statement then Bruce has found that undersized mouths cause uneven response, a simple technical statement that may be of some interest in a horn discussion. It's a fact that undersized horns have compromised performence. Such compromises don't make a speaker bad, thay just make it compromised.



You seem to be taking this a tad personally, as though you and this Terry guy have had your honor impuned. Such was not the intent. You like the speaker, fine, I never criticize a person's preference. But I am interested in technical discussion, without that this forum would consist of little more than "I like this" or "I like that".
 
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Mike---There's a difference between small and undersized horns. If one goes with a consistent flare rate and mouthsize for say, 100hz, then one has a small horn but not an undersized one. The horns of my 825 cabinets are small and only respond down to 100hz or so but are not undersized and the response is smooth and correct. The same goes for Bruce's straight 80 and 100hz basshorns. But the same size mouths on horns with length and flare-rate for, say, 50hz, would be undersized. See the difference?

Such horns are compromises yes, trading size for response, but are not undersized.
 
Hey guys...good discussion! Tho I must say I'm just watching it instead of participating. I suppose if I had some experience buildin' horns I would join in...but until that day comes (which it may never) I'll have to be happy watchin'...cause there just aint no substitute for experience.


ok...ok...now that I've said virtually nothing...why is this thread in the tube section? it is about speakers, right?


See ya's ;)
 
Mike---You're not telling me anything I don't already know. And you know I use direct-radiators below 100hz because I'm aware of the problems with attaining horn bass. Do you recall the Peavey basshorns I sold you because I was moving on to 825s? I recall that at the time you thought they were the greatest thing since sliced bread. Now they're no good.

You said"If these fellows like the sound and response they get with their smaller than optimal mouth on their horns please leave them alone unless you can produce a commercial alternative that will fullfill your "no compromise" bass horn model"

I wasn't aware that I was bothering anyone or bum-rapping anyone's preference. And if we're not to be allowed to discuss things unless we can do better ourselves none of us will have much to discuss.

I stated that Edgar told me that many rear-horns with undersized mouths have severe peaks and nulls. Simple enough. Take it or leave it, it's all the same to me.
 
There is a guy that lives about 15 minutes away and he builds bass horns. 30 Hz horns that will blow your hair back. I know there are a lot of folks that think that 30 Hz isn't all that much, but when it is coming out of a horn it rattles your bones. He is coming over tomorrow to check out the squashed Jensen Imperial I made. Also a 30 Hz horn which can also shake the house at medium volumes.
If you tune it for 30, have the right driver and of course the correct parameters you can get all the proper bass responce you need. I have heard and felt it. Liked it too.
I also would be happy to continue this discussion in the speaker forum.
 
There are of course compromises made in every field of technology and full range horns are no exception, especially if you want to put 'em in your house and then take 'em with you when you move.

I recently built a set of full-range, front loading bi-radial exponential horns that I measured in open space without the benefit of the corners of the listening and home theater room where they now live, down to a nice low 50Hz where they dropped off like a switch. The mouth area is 12.27 sq.ft. The cabinets were built as large as possible to custom fit the application and must still be partially disassembled to navigate the basement stairs by removing the rear chamber and 12" coaxial driver. They are 5 feet deep, 27" wide at the mouth and 76 inches tall. The horn flare is 4 feet long. They were inspired by that fellow that sectioned an Altec 210 cabinet in half, but have a considerably longer throat and larger mouth dimensions than the Altec. The sides are not parallel either like in the Altec and great effort was taken to brace these cabinets against resonance modes in the shop with signal generator and power amplifier. Very successfully I should add. These horns weigh about 350 lbs each!

I am extremely pleased with the response, and the full fast bass goes low enough that I do not use my subwoofer with them when listening to music. Frankly they sound better without a subwoofer muddling up their clear, precise bass.

BillF brought over his 300B SET stereo amp one day and SACD player. We had a lot of fun evaluating these and another set of speakers I was in the early stages of development with. He had nice things to say about these full range horns. See his post at http://www.audiokarma.org/forums//showthread.php?s=&threadid=1653&highlight=billF+visits+RobTV

I merely wish to point out that when it comes to horns, IMO it is possible to get better performance from a compromised horn than it might be possible in the same size enclosure using other means. These have become my own reference speakers for amplifier evaluation, besides serious recreational listening.

Rob
 
Because this is the Tube Forum ;) I should add that I am using a very conservatively designed homebrew P-P 6CA7 ultralinear 20 watt/channel tube amp on these horns and have never had it turned up past about 1/2 volume for normal listening, which is pretty loud at times. They are very efficient, which is not news to the horn people here.

Talk about conservative and reliable dewsign BTW, this amp has been running on the same set of Mullard EL34's for almost 30 years. Sure you can get 50 watts out of a pair of these, but not for 30 years, and with horns you don't need to!

Rob
 
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Rob......beautiful cabinet work on these! No doubt they sound as good as they look. From your description, it's obvious that you took a lot of care, along with extensive testing, to ensure their performance.

I merely wish to point out that when it comes to horns, IMO it is possible to get better performance from a compromised horn than it might be possible in the same size enclosure using other means.

It seems you've achieved grand success with what Tom Brennan would consider a "flawed" design. Your success occurred in spite of the "fact" that "undersized mouths cause uneven response", and "have compromised performence". Of course, Tom 'knows' more than you do.
 
Alan,

Thanx for the compliments. I took a bit of a chance building these as I had rather little to go on available on the internet regarding full-range front horns. Most common front horns are employed for only a portion of the audio spectrum. I could have bought a pair of classic Klipsch corner horns with what I spent on materials so I'm glad my intuition paid off so well.

I wouldn't be so hard on Tom Brennan though. He certainly seems to know what he is talking about in horn theory.

Rob
 
I could have bought a pair of classic Klipsch corner horns with what I spent on materials so I'm glad my intuition paid off so well.

Your methodology and intuition, I feel, was ultimately more satisfying, and you get to enjoy the fruits of that everyday. Bravo.

I wouldn't be so hard on Tom Brennan though. He certainly seems to know what he is talking about in horn theory.

While I don't know him at all, I'm sure he's quite knowledgeable, and certainly dedicated......witness his website. My sarcasm comes from his arrogant, dismissive, "take it or leave it" attitude towards others on this forum. I think it's uncalled for and disrespectful. Let's all move on.
 
Kafton----So you're a dealer eh? I didn't know that. And you sell Cain and Cain. Well no wonder you're taking this so personal, your ox is being gored.

I thought you were just acting silly when you bumrapped me but now I respect your reactions, I never blame a man for getting bent out of shape where his financial interest is involved, no sir. I expect any man to defend his rice bowl.

Had I known you were a dealer I'd have not acted dismissive, arrogant and disrespectful, I know that such behavior is the perogative of high-end audio dealers and not mine. I apologize for not "knowing my place" and overstepping my bounds.
 
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Originally posted by Tom Brennan
Sasaki---While horns can certainly make more high-frequency energy than direct-radiators (DRs) what matters is how the highs are balanced with the rest of the spectrum and as with other types of speakers this varies with the taste of the designer.

Indeed, some horns such as Altec and JBL 2-ways have rather "soft" highs.

IME the dispersion pattern of the horn has a great deal to do with the sound with narrower patterns often sounding brighter than wider ones.

For eaxample the JBL ring-radiator has been made in several models each with different horns. The 075 uses a very narrow dispersion "bullet" horn and is a real ear-burner, the thing gives me "ear-wire". But in it's 076 version with a wide dispersion "catseye" horn it sounds very nice.

Dual-concentric designs such as Altec 604s, Gallantes and the big Tannoys have horn-loaded treble and DR woofers. Designs using horn treble and DR bass are common and work very well when the woofers are 15" high-efficiency, high-output types.


www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org

Tom,
Thanks again, that's a lot of helpful information. My Galante Rhapsody's compression driver is more than likely not horn loaded since it is hiding behind a small dome in the center of the main driver. it's rolled of at 1200Hz, btw, so it just reaches into the upper-midrange, more or less.

I do need to audition some big speakers eventually, since I plan a major upgrade when I move to a bigger place in a couple of years.

Considering what I already have, would you consider it a wasted exercise to pick up a pair of Heresys to play with? Might they provide any insights? Would they be able to hold their own?
 
sasaki...If your looking to pick something up to play around with...that isn't overly huge...try some Altec Valencia's. I heard a pair of "tricked" out valencia's last week...the guy has them sounding real good. Nice tone...good dynamics...just a nice speaker to listen to.

All the "tweaks" that the guy did can be done by just about anyone...He's was/is the original owner...and after hearing the sound he now gets out of them...I would see no reason for him to look into new speakers.


take care>>>>>>>>>
 
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Sasaki---I think the driver in your Galantes is a Radian, if so the compression driver is horn loaded, both by the short horn that runs through the woofer's pole piece and then by the woofer cone itself, which is designed to act as the driver's horn. The Tannoy dual-concentrics also use the woofer cone itself as the horn. And your 1200hz crossover would call for a pretty decent sized horn. The dome you see is a dust cover to protect the compression driver and the woofer's voicecoil.

I think Hereseys are pretty good speakers, certainly the most dynamic and clear speakers I've heard of their size. Your Galantes have 8" drivers no? The Hereseys would probably be more dynamic but I doubt that they'd sound as smooth, judging from the Radian gear I've heard.

But I'm with Dan here, I'd advise some Altecs if you want to take horns to another level. The Valencias and the other Altec 2-way horns with 15" woofs such as Flamencos (same speaker as Valencia, earlier version) are outstanding speakers, much better I think than Hereseys. A couple of the guys in the club use them and Mike Bates does too, last time I talked to Mike he was very happy with them. You can spend ALOT more on horns than Valencias cost and not have a more satisfying speaker, IMO.


www.chicagohornspeakerclub.org
 
I have the Altec Flamenco components (416-z 15" alnico woofer, 806a alnico compression driver, 811 horns and 800 Hz crossover) but gave the cabinets away.

The stock Altec speaker is really pretty nice sounding. Dampening the horns and adding bracing to the cabinets help. I built my own crossover network for them too and it did sound better than the stock Altec. A used pair can be had for 400-800 a pair and seems like the pricing is still going up. They really only have response to around 80 hz then fall off from there. The 416 15 needs a big cabinet to go any lower. Even when using two of the 416's a side in 15 cubic foot cabinets they could not keep up with my horn mids/ highs.

For that kind of money however, I'd recommend getting some current "state of the art" drivers (PHL, JBL, EV, fostex, ect) and building either a 2 or 3 way with a 15" Karlson bass cabinet for response below 200 cycles and using an open back high efficiency midrange with a good tweeter or maybe an open back fullrange HE driver above the Karlson.

The Karlson Coupler is IME is equal or better to horn many times it's size in bass reproduction. With the PHL 15's I prefer them to all the bass horns I've had in my current listening room (Leviathan, Edgar, Peavey FH1) and of course all the direct radiators (TAD, JBL, Altec, Dunlavy, Von Schweikert, InnerSound, Coincident, Tannoy, Goodmans, Dalquist, ect) as well as Magnepan 3.5R panels. Yep, I've been through some speakers in this room.

Getting the massively important 40-400 hz just right and maintaining high (100 db) sensitivity in a not-to-big cabinet is very, very difficult. The Karlson fills the order to the T.
 
Sasaki---I think the driver in your Galantes is a Radian, if so the compression driver is horn loaded, both by the short horn that runs through the woofer's pole piece and then by the woofer cone itself, which is designed to act as the driver's horn. The Tannoy dual-concentrics also use the woofer cone itself as the horn. And your 1200hz crossover would call for a pretty decent sized horn. The dome you see is a dust cover to protect the compression driver and the woofer's voicecoil.

Ahh, so I am horn loaded. got some homework to do...
 
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