Brian Tambe
Active Member
Looking forward to my music sounding as you described!!
Bob Crites Titanium Diaphragms in KG4’s , is it worth doing?
- Thread starter Brian Tambe
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toxcrusadr
Omelette au Fromage
Diaphragms don't have a frequency. If I may restate this, I think the point was that the Ti diaphragms perform well over the same frequency range as the originals, including going down all the way to 1800 Hz where the original crossover has its turnover point. (and lower than that actually, since the circuit does not fall off a cliff at that point, but gradually falls off at 12 db per octave in both directions).
What your technician was telling you when he said the crossovers don't need replacement was that it was not required in order for the speaker to perform perfectly well with the new diaphragm.
But that is not the only reason to replace crossovers, or to recap them.
Someone else posted that the replacement crossovers were based on the idea that caps get old, but I think there's more to it than that. If that's all it is then you can recap them, and I think Bob sells cap kits if you don't want to freelance recapping a pair of Klipsches [Edit: Actually he doesn't have just a cap kit for the 4.2, but read on]. The kg's have an iron core inductor, which is a bit cheaper than air core but has some performance limitations. I suspect (have not verified lately) that Bob's drop-in replacement crossovers would change these out for air core. And the selection of caps (exactly which make and model) makes some difference in sound, at least for some speakers/material/ears. Finally there is probably a resistor in there to pad down the horn a bit and that can be tweaked as well. All of this stuff subtly changes various parts of the speaker's response curve, or overall sound if you will.
So, I agree with your technician, you don't need new crossovers for your new diaphragms, but there's a whole different can of worms you can get into after you enjoy your titanium for awhile and then get another itch to tweak and upgrade. Or not.
For now, enjoy the music!
Edit: Upon researching, Bob's crossovers have exactly the same number of caps, resistors and inductors, and the one inductor is still iron core. So they are not heavily modified. Just on first glance, they are loaded with Sonicaps though, which are no doubt higher quality caps than the originals. Perhaps other less obvious upgrades - I haven't seen any writeup on them so I'm just going off of first glance. He does nice work and those diaphragms are a blessing to the audio community! If I could ask for one thing it would be a detailed description of what goes into each of the Crites replacement crossovers and if it's modded at all, what those mods are designed to do.
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moray james
Super Member
Bob builds with the original factory schematic, improved parts and better layout are the only difference.
Brian Tambe
Active Member
Diaphragms don't have a frequency. If I may restate this, I think the point was that the Ti diaphragms perform well over the same frequency range as the originals, including going down all the way to 1800 Hz where the original crossover has its turnover point. (and lower than that actually, since the circuit does not fall off a cliff at that point, but gradually falls off at 12 db per octave in both directions).
What your technician was telling you when he said the crossovers don't need replacement was that it was not required in order for the speaker to perform perfectly well with the new diaphragm.
But that is not the only reason to replace crossovers, or to recap them.
Someone else posted that the replacement crossovers were based on the idea that caps get old, but I think there's more to it than that. If that's all it is then you can recap them, and I think Bob sells cap kits if you don't want to freelance recapping a pair of Klipsches [Edit: Actually he doesn't have just a cap kit for the 4.2, but read on]. The kg's have an iron core inductor, which is a bit cheaper than air core but has some performance limitations. I suspect (have not verified lately) that Bob's drop-in replacement crossovers would change these out for air core. And the selection of caps (exactly which make and model) makes some difference in sound, at least for some speakers/material/ears. Finally there is probably a resistor in there to pad down the horn a bit and that can be tweaked as well. All of this stuff subtly changes various parts of the speaker's response curve, or overall sound if you will.
So, I agree with your technician, you don't need new crossovers for your new diaphragms, but there's a whole different can of worms you can get into after you enjoy your titanium for awhile and then get another itch to tweak and upgrade. Or not.
For now, enjoy the music!
Edit: Upon researching, Bob's crossovers have exactly the same number of caps, resistors and inductors, and the one inductor is still iron core. So they are not heavily modified. Just on first glance, they are loaded with Sonicaps though, which are no doubt higher quality caps than the originals. Perhaps other less obvious upgrades - I haven't seen any writeup on them so I'm just going off of first glance. He does nice work and those diaphragms are a blessing to the audio community! If I could ask for one thing it would be a detailed description of what goes into each of the Crites replacement crossovers and if it's modded at all, what those mods are designed to do.
Toxcrusadr , thank you for your knowledgeable information and input. I’m going to go “ All In “ and replace the crossover as well. These speakers are simply AMAZING combined with my Klipsch KSW12 Subwoofer!! I have a large living room and the sound stage that the KG4 & KSW12 give , really fills the room with “ Powerful Sound “ as if the musicians and vocalists were actually in my living room. I know that’s what Paul W. Klipsch intended and I’m pleased that is what I get. I listen to 2 channel stereo mode ( just KG4’S & KSW12 Subwoofer ) However, I also listen in 5 channel with Bowers & Wilkins for rears and a Klipsch Center channel. That sound stage is intense and literally surrounds my large living room space with phenomenal sound , however , depending what I’m listening to and what source , such as Turntable vs CD changer , I will listen in just 2 channel so I can just enjoy my Klipsch Loudspeakers. Their sound is unique and sometimes deserves to be enjoyed by themselves!!Diaphragms don't have a frequency. If I may restate this, I think the point was that the Ti diaphragms perform well over the same frequency range as the originals, including going down all the way to 1800 Hz where the original crossover has its turnover point. (and lower than that actually, since the circuit does not fall off a cliff at that point, but gradually falls off at 12 db per octave in both directions).
What your technician was telling you when he said the crossovers don't need replacement was that it was not required in order for the speaker to perform perfectly well with the new diaphragm.
But that is not the only reason to replace crossovers, or to recap them.
Someone else posted that the replacement crossovers were based on the idea that caps get old, but I think there's more to it than that. If that's all it is then you can recap them, and I think Bob sells cap kits if you don't want to freelance recapping a pair of Klipsches [Edit: Actually he doesn't have just a cap kit for the 4.2, but read on]. The kg's have an iron core inductor, which is a bit cheaper than air core but has some performance limitations. I suspect (have not verified lately) that Bob's drop-in replacement crossovers would change these out for air core. And the selection of caps (exactly which make and model) makes some difference in sound, at least for some speakers/material/ears. Finally there is probably a resistor in there to pad down the horn a bit and that can be tweaked as well. All of this stuff subtly changes various parts of the speaker's response curve, or overall sound if you will.
So, I agree with your technician, you don't need new crossovers for your new diaphragms, but there's a whole different can of worms you can get into after you enjoy your titanium for awhile and then get another itch to tweak and upgrade. Or not.
For now, enjoy the music!
Edit: Upon researching, Bob's crossovers have exactly the same number of caps, resistors and inductors, and the one inductor is still iron core. So they are not heavily modified. Just on first glance, they are loaded with Sonicaps though, which are no doubt higher quality caps than the originals. Perhaps other less obvious upgrades - I haven't seen any writeup on them so I'm just going off of first glance. He does nice work and those diaphragms are a blessing to the audio community! If I could ask for one thing it would be a detailed description of what goes into each of the Crites replacement crossovers and if it's modded at all, what those mods are designed to do.
Anyway , I’ve been contemplating upgrading to the Klipsch Forte III , however , if I attempted to do that at $1,800 each , my wife would send me to the dog house!! So , an obvious inexpensive upgrade would be the Bob Crites Titanium Diaphragms and Crossovers!! I NEED to be appreciative of what I already have , especially since they aren’t manufactured anymore and If they were , the same sounding speaker would be at least $1,000 each. The KG4 with the 12” Passive radiator on the back panel of the speaker box really allows these unique speakers to sound so much larger than they actually are. Cornwall III’s are also a dream someday , however , at their price tag for brand new ones would give my wife a heart attack!! Oh the price of being married , I wouldn’t trade her for the World , small sacrifice , right?
FractalLogic
New Member
I will third the motion of Joe nardy that the crossover recap and titanium diaphragms are worth the price. My experience is similar: the recap helped a smaller amount and the titanium diaphragms are a significant improvement. The highs are smoother, less harsh, nicely defined symbols and snare drums. I think you will like the results.
Like toxcrusadr I noticed a damping down of the midrange. The only thing I would add is that I can compensate for that by using an amplifier with a strong midrange. My favorite for this is the B&K ST1400 which has such a strong midrange that it almost makes the KG4 into a 3-way sound. I’ve only used my Klipsch with SS electronics, no tube experience. Enjoy!
Like toxcrusadr I noticed a damping down of the midrange. The only thing I would add is that I can compensate for that by using an amplifier with a strong midrange. My favorite for this is the B&K ST1400 which has such a strong midrange that it almost makes the KG4 into a 3-way sound. I’ve only used my Klipsch with SS electronics, no tube experience. Enjoy!
Brian Tambe
Active Member
Mike TX , good morning, You have a pair of Fortes & KG4 ‘s? I don’t know if you read my conversation with Toxcrusadr but my KG4 ‘s are paired with Klipsch KSW-12 Subwoofer and the sound is simply “ Superb “ I’m VERY excited to hear the results after the Titanium Diaphragm & Crossover upgrade. Question , how much of a jump in sound quality , enjoyment , performance, etc. are the Fortes vs the KG4 ‘S? Is it a huge difference or do the KG4’s give the Forte’s a good race?
Brian Tambe
Active Member
I’m asking this question because I’m considering upgrading to the Fortes’s , however , Im on the fence about it because of the sound quality of my KG4 ‘S and KSW-12 Subwoofer!! Maybe the Fortes wouldn’t sound good paired with the Sub?
MikeTX
New Member
Brian, to me the Fortes are much better than the KG4s. There's a lot you can do to upgrade them as well. I'll be upgrading the mid horn with Ti as well. I run them with a subwoofer through a Marantz 4600 and it beats out my Marantz 2235b. I know some will cringe at the thought of a sub and a more modern receiver, but it suits my 50 year old ears.
I haven't tried a sub on the KG4s, but I plan to.
I haven't tried a sub on the KG4s, but I plan to.
MikeTX
New Member
Brian, instead of $1800 Fortes, consider looking for them on Craigslist and upgrading as you go. I picked mine up for about $500 but had to look for a while and be ready with the cash.
Brian Tambe
Active Member
Excellent suggestion , searching Craigslist or Ebay for the near mint pair of Forte's. Going from the KG4 , would the Forte be the right choice or is there another " Heritage " series that you would suggest? Cornwalls , perhaps?
Brian Tambe
Active Member
My ears are 55 years old and I think you are going to love the KG4's paired up with a Sub.
MikeTX
New Member
I read that Cornwalls are better than Fortes, but have no experience with them. La Scala are also talked about, but they are quite huge. I read that Heresys need a subwoofer paired with them. Bob Crites sells the capacitors for all of those models I believe. He's really a down-to-earth guy and answers his own phone. He'll guide you through any of the upgrades with his opinion. If you haven't read his posts already Moray James writes about all sorts of mods to the heritage line....wrapping the horns, capacitors, passive radiator weights, cabinet bracing, etc. He's been really helpful to me.
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Brian Tambe
Active Member
Yes , I spoke with Bob Crites yesterday about the Titanium Diaphragms that he is sending me ( K-74-K ) Only $52.00 for the pair and $8.00 shipping. $62.00 for these? That's incredibly reasonable and my technician is willing to install the pair for $40.00 , so , for $102.00 , I'm going to have a significant upgrade to the high frequency of my speakers. I'm still contemplating whether to do the crossover upgrade as you and others have said the difference is minimal compared to the difference the Titanium diaphragms will do to the overall sound of these incredible speakers.
MikeTX
New Member
That's the same price I paid...it's a good deal. I've replaced the diaphragms in my Fortes and KG4s. If I remember right, it only required a phillips screwdriver, needle nose pliers and I was done quickly. Just remember to mark the terminals and the wires. Bob's website has instructions as well. Here's the link: https://critesspeakers.com/replacing_the_diaphragm_on_.html
I did the crossovers myself as well, but it required some desoldering and soldering as I kept them on the original board and didn't create a new one.
I did the crossovers myself as well, but it required some desoldering and soldering as I kept them on the original board and didn't create a new one.
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Brian,
That's probably the best way to go to ensure you're getting the best from your KG4's at a very reasonable cost while maintaining marital harmony. All us married folks understand the importance of keeping the spouse happy. Please post your observations once you have the upgrades in place. I'd put my money on a very positive review!
Thanks,
Joe
toxcrusadr
Omelette au Fromage
I asked the same question about 'where to go next' although it was from the 4.2 instead of the 4. But Forte was one of the answers I got. I'm keeping my eye out for a used pair one of these days.
Brian, glad you're liking your upgraded kg4's!
Brian, glad you're liking your upgraded kg4's!
851 SP3
Active Member
My son has a pair of Fortes. They were gifted to him by my best friend who bought them new in '87. I listened to them alot back then, swapping amps, pre-amps, sources, all kinds of music, and different volume levels. I never once thought 'if only there was a sub...'. Since my son got them (a few years ago now) I haven't once thought 'if only there was a sub...'.
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