Cerwin Vega Model 26 Woofer Issue

C

cimchazz1

Active Member
Hello, have a pair of CV model 26 that I bought new in 1977. I had CV repair the surrounds in 1980 (rotted out) and now I notice there is a voice coil rubbing in one woofer.
The woofer is a 12" model 2723 (according to Gibson/CV) steel stamped frame 60Wrms w/1.6" voice coil. The sales brochchur/spec sheet showed them as "L121 12" (30cm) 1.6" (4cm) voice coil, 22Hz resonance, 7lb (3.2Kg) magnet system".
Does anyone know where I can get the repair kit for this? Simply Speakers does not carry it. If I decide to replace both woofers together, what would be a good upgrade? I measured 6.6 ohms on the speaker alone. Is there a highly efficient replacement with similar specs or better? Should I go to the cast frame CV171 (they might be 4 ohms)? Or an Eminence or Celestion or ?
Thanks
 
Best to stick with the original woofer if at all possible, since it interacts so much with the cabinet as well as with the other drivers through the crossover.

Does the rubbing happen only at high volumes or all the time?

Have you tried laying the speaker on its back, or flipping upside down? The spider can sag over time, leading to VC rub, and if upside down cures it, all you have to do is unbolt the woofer and flip it upside down and reinstall.
 
Yes, thanks for the reply, I moved it around in different positions and exercised the voice coil in and out hoping to maybe knock the dirt or dust particle out, but no change. I first noticed it breaking up at low volume (at higher volume it was better) and thought I was losing a channel at first, but pulled the speaker and noticed the rub. I agree with trying to keep the same original driver in that cab, but, after speaking with the "technicians" at Gibson/Cerwin Vega, I don't have confidence that anyone can rebuild it with the correct parts (it's a 2723 that nobody has parts for I'm told), so rather that getting an incorretly rebuiltspeaker back that doesn't match the one that is still good, I am going to swap out both with something that "might" be close (hard to tell for sure with no info available on original). So I am installing (2) (probably Chinese?) 6ohm Cerwin Vega WOFH12209's. I will keep the originals just in case someday I can get them repaired correctly.
 
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Hmm, OK.

Were the WOFH's used in a similar type of cabinet - ported vs. sealed? That's the big thing. If not, they may not perform correctly at all.

Meanwhile I would replace the bad one first, set your amp/receiver on MONO, and pan left and right with the balance control. Compare the sound.

If you had access to a driver tester, you could have the good one tested, get its T/S parameters, and that would help you locate a suitable replacement. Where are you located?

I didn't think of this before, but it's possible the magnet has shifted. That's a problem with certain speakers, where the magnet assy. is epoxied on, and the glue fails. The assy. still sticks on there due to magnetic force, but it can move from vibrations, making the voice coil rub. Not sure if CV is susceptible to this. It's repairable. Basically all the parts are fine, the magnet just needs to be repositioned and reglued. A speaker shop can do it, or you can, if you're brave.

You can also set up a specific search on ebay for that woofer and have it email you if one comes up. People part out speakers all the time.
 
The speakers I ordered are supposedly used in a very popular 3-way model called the XLS-12. I can't find a picture of the back, but I'm guessing (for now) that it might be front ported. My model 26 is a shorter 2-way cab and is rear ported. I think the specs are similar, except for the db sensitivity seemed to be much higher on the old Cerwin Vega cabs, don't know how that related to the woofer. I had looked at used woofers on Ebay, but I could eventually have the same issue, whee I need to recone or repair and I can't find the correct parts. Simply Speakers sells a kit for the 12" woofers, but they are 4ohms only. A few rebuilders I talked to told me to bring it in and they would look at it, but what guarantee do I have that it is rebuilt to original specs in the end, after I dish out 100 bucks to repair it? I just rechecked the old one, it actually sounds like something is loose and vibrating inside when I tap the edge, and has a scrape coming from the coil area. The magnet is glued tight, and not bolted on. I was able to move the spider a little to pull the cone toward one side and the noise was almost gone, but that magnet is definately tight. I think the a few coils came loose. Maybe I will take it in to have it checked anyway. Thanks
 
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cimchazz1 said:
The speakers I ordered are supposedly used in a very popular 3-way model called the XLS-12. I can't find a picture of the back, but I'm guessing (for now) that it might be front ported. My model 26 is a shorter 2-way cab and is rear ported. I think the specs are similar, except for the db sensitivity seemed to be much higher on the old Cerwin Vega cabs, don't know how that related to the woofer. I had looked at used woofers on Ebay, but I could eventually have the same issue, whee I need to recone or repair and I can't find the correct parts. Simply Speakers sells a kit for the 12" woofers, but they are 4ohms only. A few rebuilders I talked to told me to bring it in and they would look at it, but what guarantee do I have that it is rebuilt to original specs in the end, after I dish out 100 bucks to repair it? I just rechecked the old one, it actually sounds like something is loose and vibrating inside when I tap the edge, and has a scrape coming from the coil area. The magnet is glued tight, and not bolted on. I was able to move the spider a little to pull the cone toward one side and the noise was almost gone, but that magnet is definately tight. I think the a few coils came loose. Maybe I will take it in to have it checked anyway. Thanks
Click to expand...
And I understand matching speakers to cabs, who really knows what these speaker specs are if they are coming from China, anyways??? I guess I might replace the bad one first and listen to what the difference is. Maybe I will like it better. I'm only driving it with a Mcintosh MA5100 amp, so I don't think I will be overpowering it..
 
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CV could probably give you the T/S params at least on the newer one, if not the original.

Anyway, it's good they are both ported cabinets. If the cabinet size and port diameter and length are similar, it is more likely to sound OK Different sensitivity could affect the bass output even though the shape of the frequency response curve may be close to the original. You'll just have to try it and see.
 
Well, that would be good, but I have not been able to verify now that the XLS-12 are ported, and I can't get specs on either woofer as a stand alone outside the cab, so what I think I am doing is putting a woofer from a 4 cu ft non-ported cab into a 2cu ft ported cab. Don't know how the port compensates for the smaller space, if any, but I think if the smaller space was not ported, the woofer would have a hard time moving the air it needs to? Anyway, since there are no more rebuild kits for the original 6 ohm speakers, I doubt I will ever get these model 26's to sound like they did originally. So it's all just trial and error now. I had the original speaker "yellow menbrane" surrounds replaced in 1980 by Cerwin Vega in CA and I thought they didn't sounded as good after that change. Plus, I'm probably going deaf, anyway. :p
.
 
There are three kinds of woofers: ones that like ported cabinets, ones for sealed cabinets, and ones that are in-between and can do either one.

In a sealed box the air acts more like a spring, and the woofer can be more 'floppy'. Put a woofer like that in a ported box where it doesn't have that stiff spring behind it, and it will flop around and be over-extended on loud passages. Put a stiffer woofer designed for a ported box into a sealed box and it won't output as much bass as it could because it can't fight that air spring. Very simplified analogy but kinda makes sense.

This site has a lot of good info: https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/

This calculator: https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/Calculator/SealedVsPortedSpeakerBox/
lets you put in some of the T/S parameters and it will tell you if a woofer is more suited to a sealed or ported enclosure.

Your woofers could be tested in a few minutes by someone who has the right gadget to plug into a PC. Where are you located?
 
Thanks, makes sense, I'm a bass player, same effect in bass cabs. I'm in MI. I was told that CV quit making speakers long ago. I picked these because the are 6 ohm like originals and look authentic. No specs available, so, as you say, they need to be tested. I'm sure there is a better choice, I need to put some time into research I guess. The only real knows are enclosure size and old speaker is 6 ohms (because I measured it). I'm just outside Detroit. Thanks
 
cimchazz1 said:
Well, that would be good, but I have not been able to verify now that the XLS-12 are ported, and I can't get specs on either woofer as a stand alone outside the cab, so what I think I am doing is putting a woofer from a 4 cu ft non-ported cab into a 2cu ft ported cab. Don't know how the port compensates for the smaller space, if any, but I think if the smaller space was not ported, the woofer would have a hard time moving the air it needs to? Anyway, since there are no more rebuild kits for the original 6 ohm speakers, I doubt I will ever get these model 26's to sound like they did originally. So it's all just trial and error now. I had the original speaker "yellow menbrane" surrounds replaced in 1980 by Cerwin Vega in CA and I thought they didn't sounded as good after that change. Plus, I'm probably going deaf, anyway. :p
.
Click to expand...
https://www.facebook.com/spiralrecone/

Very experienced in CERWIN VEGA Repair
 
cimchazz1 said:
Thanks, makes sense, I'm a bass player, same effect in bass cabs. I'm in MI. I was told that CV quit making speakers long ago. I picked these because the are 6 ohm like originals and look authentic. No specs available, so, as you say, they need to be tested. I'm sure there is a better choice, I need to put some time into research I guess. The only real knows are enclosure size and old speaker is 6 ohms (because I measured it). I'm just outside Detroit. Thanks
Click to expand...
https://www.facebook.com/spiralrecone/

In Berkeley Mi on 12 mile
 
Thanks, I did call Spiral and talk to Allen, that's the only place I would go for a rebuild. He said he would take a look at it and see if he could find similar parts to repair it.
 
If you measured the original woofer with an ohmmeter, you should get about 3/4 of the AC impedance since the meter measures DC resistance. 8 ohm drivers typically measure 5.5-6 ohms on a meter.
 
Thanks for that info. So I just left Spiral Reconing in Berkley, MI and Alan thinks I may have the wrong woofers in my model 26 cabs. I'm supposed to have L-121 (4 ohm) aluminum frame woofers, but I have these steel frame (5 ohm measured) woofers that CV sent me back under warranty in 1980 with blue and silver Cerwin Vega stickers stuck on the magnet and cerwin vega orange surrounds and dust covers. I never thought these speakers sounded right after the speaker repair/swap and now I know why. Alan pointed out the cone pulls up on the spider by about 1/8", so there is always downward tension on the cone, and the coils are up out of the magnet. They have never been right all this time. So not sure what the next step will be, maybe I will look for the correct speakers? Don't know yet if there is a good upgrade, but at least now I know what the problem is.
BTW, peeled off the Cerwin Vega sticker off the back of the magnet and the numbers 7206-9983
575301 stamped in yellow ink were under it. Wth are these?????????????
 
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At least you now know the correct model # of the woofer. Set up an auto notification on ebay. And, spend $25, become an AK Subscriber, and post a Wanted in Bartertown. The advice and everything I've gotten here has been worth many times that. :thumbsup:
 
I don't find much on the numbers you got of the woofers that are in there now. I'm not familiar with CV part number formats. The 6-digit # is sometimes a date code + manuf. code, but neither 575 or 301 matches any EIA manufacturer codes. And neither one would be a date near 1980. None of the numbers comes up in a web search either (i.e. "Cerwin Vega XXXX"). :dunno:
 
Thanks, Alan at Spiral Reconing identified them as Heppner, I guess the 575 is a manufacturer code for them. So I would say the model ID # is Heppner 575301. I'm going to guess the other numbers include a date code, maybe 7206 is June, 1972??? I read that Cerwin Vega used Heppners in some of the Model 24 and 26 enclosures in the '70's, don't know why or what the specs are or if they are better or worse or the same as the L121-4 that were also used??? Anyone have any info on Heppner from the '70's? Thanks
 
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