punprankster
Super Member
ATM I'm alternatng between a Sony CDP-8ESD and a Denon DVD910 for use as my primary CD player. Will I benefit from a dedicated DAC? How importnat is it to a system?
DAC importance
- Thread starter punprankster
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Not being familiar with those specifically I can't give a definitive answer.
DACs do sound different.
I have the original schiit modi, which was a major step up from my pc sound card.
I later got a maverick 2 DAC. I felt that a big step up from the modi.
Not long ago I got a schiit bifrost mb. While it was good, I preferred the maverick. (Just my opinion . On my gear. In my space.)
On paper the mb should have been better.
I have inbound, a oppo 205 (maybe one of the last made).
It can be used as an outboard DAC as well and I'll likely post my impressions someplace here.
I think you really have to try for yourself
.
DACs do sound different.
I have the original schiit modi, which was a major step up from my pc sound card.
I later got a maverick 2 DAC. I felt that a big step up from the modi.
Not long ago I got a schiit bifrost mb. While it was good, I preferred the maverick. (Just my opinion . On my gear. In my space.)
On paper the mb should have been better.
I have inbound, a oppo 205 (maybe one of the last made).
It can be used as an outboard DAC as well and I'll likely post my impressions someplace here.
I think you really have to try for yourself
.savatage1973
Addicted Member
Maybe yes, maybe no--a CDP is three components in one--a drive/transport, a DAC and then an analogue preamp stage, which can implement opamps, discrete components or even tubes. It all depends on what you prefer as your "sonic signature". An external DAC can offer flexible options as what DAC chipset is used and what the final analogue preamp stage is.
IMHO it is very important, just like selection of other components in the entire chain from source to speakers, but as with anything, pick what you like.
Much of what you'd like depends on what you hear. So it is with DACs as it is with any other audio gear.
There are sonic differences from one component (CDP, DAC, Integrated with digital inputs) to another and, when listening to music being converted from digital to analog by the component, much of that difference is driven by the chipset used. Only your ears will tell you what sounds best to you.
There are sonic differences from one component (CDP, DAC, Integrated with digital inputs) to another and, when listening to music being converted from digital to analog by the component, much of that difference is driven by the chipset used. Only your ears will tell you what sounds best to you.
I think DAC's are a tough nut to grade. If the CDP that your using has a crappy DAC chipset or a lousy audio output amp built in than most any out board DAC will be an improvement. On the other hand if your CDP has good quality components and is carefully designed it might take a very expensive DAC to hear an improvement.
One suggestion I will make if all you listen to is CD's is to look at some of the older DAC's from the early 90's. Units like the Parasound D/AC-1000 can sound amazing.
BillWojo
One suggestion I will make if all you listen to is CD's is to look at some of the older DAC's from the early 90's. Units like the Parasound D/AC-1000 can sound amazing.
BillWojo
savatage1973
Addicted Member
I will have to respectfully disagree with this. Some of the older CDPs used very competent DAC chipsets and well-designed analogue audio output stages. A lot of the more "modern" multi-format players sound like crap for audio CD use. Yes, they can read and decode everything from a CD to 4K rez multi-channel BRD with all of the HT encodings, but the more functions you try to squeeze into one box, the more compromises that have to be made. They may do "everything", but can't do everything well--regardless of price.
I do agree that a "modern" external DAC can make a huge improvement, and offers the flexibility to tailor the sonic signature to your tastes, but I don't just rule out all of the "vintage" CDPs as being totally obselete.
onanysunday
Listen carefully
It depends what good sound means to you. Some find it in better specs and more detailed, articulate sound while others find it in the creamier warmth of smooth character.
In terms of oversampling filters for CD players, originally there were none or there was only 2X or 4X oversampling. To me, those earlier players sound superior to the later 8x and up oversampling players if the appropriate DAC was implemented. Music starts to become overly precise and unnatural sounding otherwise.
I recently upgraded the clock which allowed me to completely remove the oversampling on a TDA 1541A-S1 DAC for a modded Rotel RCD-855 cd player. I can indeed attest to the notion that no oversampling is better. Getting that SAA7220 chip out of there was the best thing to happen to the TDA1541 dac. It opened up the sound and unveiled it in a fresh way.
In terms of oversampling filters for CD players, originally there were none or there was only 2X or 4X oversampling. To me, those earlier players sound superior to the later 8x and up oversampling players if the appropriate DAC was implemented. Music starts to become overly precise and unnatural sounding otherwise.
I recently upgraded the clock which allowed me to completely remove the oversampling on a TDA 1541A-S1 DAC for a modded Rotel RCD-855 cd player. I can indeed attest to the notion that no oversampling is better. Getting that SAA7220 chip out of there was the best thing to happen to the TDA1541 dac. It opened up the sound and unveiled it in a fresh way.
mjw21a
Super Member
Heck, I've found that in most cases an external DAC sounds better.... Providing the DAC is matched to the system.
My main system (Oldchen K3 + Aurum Cantus F620 speakers) is smooth and neutral and sounds incredible with a Gieseler Groß DAC , though frankly I'm yet to find a system doesn't match with this DAC. It blends the detail of a modern DAC with wonderful tonality of a NOS Philips DAC. The strengths of each and weaknesses of neither. On the other hand it's kind of pricey.
My second system (Marantz CD-63SE + Oldchen EL34B + Dayton USA PS220-8 + Wharfedale SW150 sub) sounds best with a Starting Point Systems DAC3 based on the old Philips TDA1543 chip. This system tends to be a bit edgy and fatiguing so it's a good match with it. The S.M.S.L M8 also outperforms the DAC in the old Marantz CD-63SE. The Schiit Modi Multibit sounds aggressive and fatiguing in this system.
My third is a small bedroom system utilities a Shanling EC1B CDP + Hood amp + Boston Acoustics A100 speakers. I've tried a few DAC's with this (Gustard DAC-X12, S.M.S.L M8, Starting Point Systems DAC3, Schiit Modi Multibit) and frankly nothing beats the Burr Browns built into the CD player.
So really it comes down to the system and the DAC built into individual components. If you've multiple digital inputs on a system though you can match the sound signatures by using a single outboard DAC for all of them though.
Having said that, the Humble S.M.S.L SD1955+ Sanskrit rules all for TV and movies.
My main system (Oldchen K3 + Aurum Cantus F620 speakers) is smooth and neutral and sounds incredible with a Gieseler Groß DAC , though frankly I'm yet to find a system doesn't match with this DAC. It blends the detail of a modern DAC with wonderful tonality of a NOS Philips DAC. The strengths of each and weaknesses of neither. On the other hand it's kind of pricey.
My second system (Marantz CD-63SE + Oldchen EL34B + Dayton USA PS220-8 + Wharfedale SW150 sub) sounds best with a Starting Point Systems DAC3 based on the old Philips TDA1543 chip. This system tends to be a bit edgy and fatiguing so it's a good match with it. The S.M.S.L M8 also outperforms the DAC in the old Marantz CD-63SE. The Schiit Modi Multibit sounds aggressive and fatiguing in this system.
My third is a small bedroom system utilities a Shanling EC1B CDP + Hood amp + Boston Acoustics A100 speakers. I've tried a few DAC's with this (Gustard DAC-X12, S.M.S.L M8, Starting Point Systems DAC3, Schiit Modi Multibit) and frankly nothing beats the Burr Browns built into the CD player.
So really it comes down to the system and the DAC built into individual components. If you've multiple digital inputs on a system though you can match the sound signatures by using a single outboard DAC for all of them though.
Having said that, the Humble S.M.S.L SD1955+ Sanskrit rules all for TV and movies.
WobblySam
Well-Known Member
I would tend to agree with you. Many of the ladder DACs from the 90s have a sound that is hard to beat but, that's just my personal opinion. They are excellent for Red Book audio.
The filters in most DACs, regardless of age, are quite often the "problem". Almost all of the new DACs either upsample or oversample and that opens a can of nasties unless of course, you like that sound. Later CD players included those 1 bit converters and oodles of oversampling and sounded awful - that is, to me. Some folks like them, some don't. Again, newer doesn't always mean better.
Cheers
onanysunday
Listen carefully
Newer is better period? What's the basis of these "measurements" we've all agreed upon as being the most relevant to our enjoyment of listening to music?
WobblySam
Well-Known Member
I knew the minute I hit "Post Reply" I was making a mistake. I've been good these past 5 years - staying completely out of any and all DAC discussions. I wore myself out a decade ago in various forums loaded with Google PhDs. I'm sure computeraudiophile is a fun site and I'm sure that they have oodles of experts there. I only have my 22 years of experience working at Analog Devices to prop me up - certainly no challenge to you or the folks at CA. I shall now retreat gracefully from the thread.
Cheers
onanysunday
Listen carefully
No mistakes made here, everyone is entitled to their opinion and yours is just as valid as anyone else's. It doesn't make anyone right or wrong. Newer IS better, except that specs don't always encompass the totality of a pleasurable listening experience that cannot be quantified through numbers alone.
Just listening to a 1986 Vector Research VCD-900 with old school 'obsolete' PCM54HP DAC is absolutely devastating in how clear, natural, smooth and precise the music sounds with an absolutely enormous soundstage. There is the DAC itself and then there is the implementation of it with surrounding hardware and an old DAC can sound superior to a newer one if it is optimized.
You can just throw in a new DAC in some modern hardware and hope it sounds better (which it often will) or you can spend more time optimizing the DAC you do have to sound exceptional and achieve the same, if not better result.
Just listening to a 1986 Vector Research VCD-900 with old school 'obsolete' PCM54HP DAC is absolutely devastating in how clear, natural, smooth and precise the music sounds with an absolutely enormous soundstage. There is the DAC itself and then there is the implementation of it with surrounding hardware and an old DAC can sound superior to a newer one if it is optimized.
You can just throw in a new DAC in some modern hardware and hope it sounds better (which it often will) or you can spend more time optimizing the DAC you do have to sound exceptional and achieve the same, if not better result.
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You need to rethink this (the validity and truth portions).
onanysunday
Listen carefully
There is a point of diminishing returns in the sense that ever-increasing, better specifications cannot enhance the sound indefinitely. There comes a point where things stop sounding natural and music starts becoming overly clear, precise to the point where it's not even the real music an more, but an over-reliance and over emphasis on the need and unfailing desire to make things better and better and better somehow.
Remember vinyl? I don't think they are even 16-bit and yet people continue to claim these old records sound better than modern CDs on new high-resolution digital equipment, why is that? The soul of music cannot be captured, relegated or contained only to increasing specs and numbers alone, it just doesn't work that way. For some yes, absolutely, but for others, no. It does not mean that those who choose to listen on older equipment are just listening to crappy sound.
Remember vinyl? I don't think they are even 16-bit and yet people continue to claim these old records sound better than modern CDs on new high-resolution digital equipment, why is that? The soul of music cannot be captured, relegated or contained only to increasing specs and numbers alone, it just doesn't work that way. For some yes, absolutely, but for others, no. It does not mean that those who choose to listen on older equipment are just listening to crappy sound.
onanysunday
Listen carefully
Prove it, show me. Nobody owns a 'stranglehold' on what real, natural music is suppose to sound like. You can bombard me with numbers, but again, they don't tell the whole story as to what is pleasurable to listen to, and what is not. In the end, I'm in love with the music not the equipment whatever gets me closer to this feeling is best. What I found, time and again, is that it's usually the older equipment with obsolete technology that gets me there.
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onanysunday
Listen carefully
Genius! Just say you have nothing useful to add at this point- unless you do.
onanysunday
Listen carefully
The truth in audio, if there is any truth to be had, comes from 'the listening' nothing else.
