Decks that play worn tapes....

[ethangsmith]

Hi folks,

I don't have the luxury of having mint tapes, I get most of mine well used through record shops, garage sales, friends, etc. While my Technics RS-B555 does a good job with a surprising number of them, my Pioneer CT-F750 seems to only play perfect tapes- even after having the deck serviced. It has a tendency to want to chew on some of them as well. I also don't think the playback is that great. What I'm looking for are suggestions for decks that are known to play worn and old tapes well and sound decent. Looking in the "under $200" range.

 

[jlb2]

Since no one seems to have an idea, I'll give mine even though it doesn't match your criteria. Hopefully someone will join in with another option.

The biggest problem with old cassettes is usually that the shell lining goes stiff and doesn't let the tape run freely anymore, so the best deck to play such tapes is one that has a high torque (to pull the tape from the old shell) and gives a good control of the tape tension. The ideal machine to meet these contradictory conditions is a dual capstan deck, either a Revox/Studer or a Nakamichi Dragon. Personally I use a Studer A710 (= Revox B710 with balanced inputs/outputs) and it works wonders even on the worst cassettes I've seen, that systematically jam on other decks. It plays them smoothly and treats them gently too. The bad news is that, unless you are extremely lucky, you can't get one for less than $200.Some single-capstan decks may provide a high torque too, if well adjusted, but possibly with a higher risk to the tape. I don't know single-capstan decks renowned for their high torque, which doesn't mean they don't exist.

 

[ethangsmith]

I wonder if that's some of the magic to the Technics RS-B555 deck I have- it's direct drive and single capstan, so all that torque is going directly into driving the tape. The Pioneer CT-F750 must not have good torque as it's dual capstan, but it just does not playback worn and old tapes well at all.

 

[jlb2]

Why would dual capstan mean low torque? Aren't you overgeneralizing and drawing hypotheses from just two cases?

BTW according to the brochure the CT-F750 is not a dual-capstan drive. It is an autoreverse deck with two capstans than don't act simultaneoulsy, one being engaged when playing in the "forward" direction and the other when playing in the "reverse" direction. A dual-capstan drive is a completely different system, in which two capstans interact to simultaneously drive the tape and set the tape tension.

 

[ethangsmith]

I didn't mean that dual capstan had low torque. I should have maybe phrased it differently. What I meant was that since the CT-F750 was (Seemingly) a dual capstan deck, it should perform much better than it actually is. BUT..... Now knowing it's not an actual dual drive capstan, that makes all the more sense about the poor playback. Maybe I should avoid auto-reverse decks????

 

[MRL_Audio]

I think your Pioneer was not serviced properly

 

[maxhifi]

If it chews tape, it means the capstan is pushing tape through faster than the tape up spindle can take it, and it spills out.

In a tape deck, the capstan always turns at a constant speed, and the take up reel turns at a variable speed, starting off fast when the reel is empty, and slowing down as the reel fills up. The way this variable speed is handled, is usually with a clutch, which allows slip between the reel spindle and the drive motor. If this clutch isn't maintaining enough friction, then not enough torque will pass through it to properly take up the tape. Since an old tape requires more torque to spin due to increased friction, it could be the issue.

Another possibility is that your tapes are really in poor shape - try turning the reel with a pencil and see if it moves freely. If it requires excessive force, put the tape in the deck, and fast forward it to the end, then rewind it all the way, and repeat several times. Sometimes this can loosen up a tight tape.

 

[ethangsmith]

I'd definitely subscribe to the idea that it needs further service. FF and REW are very slow and often stall out before it fully fast forwards or rewinds any tape.

 

[spicer]

I didn't mean that dual capstan had low torque. I should have maybe phrased it differently. What I meant was that since the CT-F750 was (Seemingly) a dual capstan deck, it should perform much better than it actually is. BUT..... Now knowing it's not an actual dual drive capstan, that makes all the more sense about the poor playback. Maybe I should avoid auto-reverse decks????

Assuming the cassette is not jammed on the take up side, it is often a matter of take up torque supplied by the take up reel being sufficient to overcome what might be increased mechanical resistance in the cassette shell. Another thing is the pinch roller and capstan shaft. The pinch roller has to be clean and in good shape or else it can skew and drive the tape up or down on the capstan causing it to twist and jam the cassette as it enters the shell. Take up torque, too much, too little, will make it more or less susceptible to this if there is a pinch roller problem. Also, the capstan itself must be in vertical alignment to the tape path, an unusual problem, caused by worn capstan bushings. And, of course, pinch roller pressure...make sure what ever supplies the pressure is clean and operating smoothly. Anyway, that's my experience. That auto reverse Pioneer has two capstans but only one is engaged in either direction. When two capstans are engaged it is important that the belt and drive surfaces be in good condition as one is always supposed to lead the other a touch otherwise tape will spill into the machine, often around the capstan, not as it exists the tape path to the shell.

 

[spicer]

I'd definitely subscribe to the idea that it needs further service. FF and REW are very slow and often stall out before it fully fast forwards or rewinds any tape.

Well... if that's the case it needs service. Should have all the rubber parts replaced at the very least. I remember those machines being somewhat problematic, but then I saw the ones that came in for service and they sold many of them.

 

[ethangsmith]

Sort of what I figured. I think I'll just look for a replacement that will be more reliable. I can probably find something for less than having the Pioneer ripped apart.

 

[jlb2]

Assuming the cassette is not jammed on the take up side, it is often a matter of take up torque supplied by the take up reel being sufficient to overcome what might be increased mechanical resistance in the cassette shell. Another thing is the pinch roller and capstan shaft. The pinch roller has to be clean and in good shape or else it can skew and drive the tape up or down on the capstan causing it to twist and jam the cassette as it enters the shell. Take up torque, too much, too little, will make it more or less susceptible to this if there is a pinch roller problem. Also, the capstan itself must be in vertical alignment to the tape path, an unusual problem, caused by worn capstan bushings. And, of course, pinch roller pressure...make sure what ever supplies the pressure is clean and operating smoothly. Anyway, that's my experience. That auto reverse Pioneer has two capstans but only one is engaged in either direction.

I'll add that, in addition to those conditions, (which all depend on a proper care to the deck) one usually cannot expect wonders if the cassette is in such a condition that the shell/lining jams the tape. Dual capstan drive considerably helps because it isolates the actions of pulling the tape from the shell (which can require some brute force when the shell is in poor shape) and of handling smoothly the tape in front of the heads, but it is not a good idea to buy such a deck just for saving on cassettes. Ethan, if it is your plan, then you should put in balance the extra cost of decent cassettes (and the fact that tape in a damaged shell will most probably not be at its best either) and the much lesser price of a decent deck in good condition compared to a high-end machine - for an end result that will be the same at best. Things are different if your purpose is to play unique recordings in poor condition.

When two capstans are engaged it is important that the belt and drive surfaces be in good condition as one is always supposed to lead the other a touch otherwise tape will spill into the machine, often around the capstan, not as it exists the tape path to the shell.

A dual capstan drive -at least those that I am aware of- does not rely on belts to synchronize the two capstans, it would be practically guaranteed to fail. It is done electronically with a servo loop. You give a really good description of what happens if the servo fails, I've seen it happen once during a trial Fortunately this is an ultra-rare event in real life

 

[maxhifi]

I'd definitely subscribe to the idea that it needs further service. FF and REW are very slow and often stall out before it fully fast forwards or rewinds any tape.

In this case, I would suspect the rubber idler tires which drive the reels, and not rule out gummed up old grease, preventing them from positively engaging. I recently serviced a CT-F9191 which required quite a bit of work to get the mechanism working properly. What a beautiful sound though, it was one of the best cassette decks I remember hearing.

 

[ethangsmith]

My local vintage audio store has a Sony TC-K81 3 head dual capstan that I can get for a good price. Would this be a good deck? Looks pretty top of the line.

 

[spicer]

I'll add that, in addition to those conditions, (which all depend on a proper care to the deck) one usually cannot expect wonders if the cassette is in such a condition that the shell/lining jams the tape. Dual capstan drive considerably helps because it isolates the actions of pulling the tape from the shell (which can require some brute force when the shell is in poor shape) and of handling smoothly the tape in front of the heads, but it is not a good idea to buy such a deck just for saving on cassettes. Ethan, if it is your plan, then you should put in balance the extra cost of decent cassettes (and the fact that tape in a damaged shell will most probably not be at its best either) and the much lesser price of a decent deck in good condition compared to a high-end machine - for an end result that will be the same at best. Things are different if your purpose is to play unique recordings in poor condition.



A dual capstan drive -at least those that I am aware of- does not rely on belts to synchronize the two capstans, it would be practically guaranteed to fail. It is done electronically with a servo loop. You give a really good description of what happens if the servo fails, I've seen it happen once during a trial Fortunately this is an ultra-rare event in real life

Yes, dual capstan on higher end decks to buffer cassette shell variations on tape movement... the tape travels in it's own mechanical environment. Servo would be best. Examples of a nice belt driven unit is the Akai 760D dual capstan, single direction of course. One capstan flywheel rim circumference was slightly larger than the other to insure a measured amount of drive speed difference. You had to have them in the correct order for reassembly. Akai did a good job with those. Take up had it's own motor and little belt and drive board, torque was pot adjusted. Only other drive belt in it was a flat one for the capstans. Each reel table was a motor. Sorry.. I kind of went off on a tangent.

 

[oldvinyldude]

Another solution might be to purchase some C-0 shells, with screws. You remove the tape from the old shell (often have to break the shell to do so), and put tape pack into new shell. Of course, you lose the unique labels of the original shell, and it takes some time to do-fiddly work for sure.

 

[wormhole]

I did a few shell replacements in years past. Always a challenge for me to keep the tape from unwinding all over the workbench. I found a new, unopened shell replacement kit in my stuff a few days ago, Made me think that I don't have the dexterity to do that anymore (old fingers are too stiff).

 

[danj]

My three-motor Akai GX-R60EX does a fine job with worn tapes and a big plus is that the heads and capstan/pinch rollers are pretty easy to clean. My three motor Pioneer CT-S88R does okay but doesn't have the torque the Akai has and the heads are not as accessible for cleaning. My vintage (bought new in 1971) Fleetwood Mac "Future Games" cassette plays great and it's in its original housing and has been played a zillion times (ok, maybe half a zillion). My Technics RS-TR157, which is a dual well single motor per well machine, is not so good with worn tapes. It's a low torque machine but, luckily, its tape paths are super easy to get to for cleaning.