Does amplifier wpc @ 4 or 2 ohm really matter at "low" volumes?

and can be dynam
Here we go again, the goalposts have been moved to fit the narrative - again. :rolleyes: What part of "all other things equal" do people not understand.

The fact that one amplifier is distorting more than the other is not the issue! Not all high powered amplifiers necessarily have less distortion than lower powered amplifiers - and certainly it is not due to mere fact of being a higher powered amplifier. This is not a difficult concept to understand.

Go up to McIntosh and speak to the engineers there.
I don't believe that I shifted the goalposts, as you say. I simply clarified what a possible meaning of "all other things being equal" could be, which I did as in my opinion the original definition was insufficiently specified.
Arguably, two amps with identical specs/measured performance at a given output power level will perform identically with a signal that does not cause any kind of pathology in the output- so if all that matters is the concept of unrealized power reserve then I concur, but isn't that just the trivial case? At low enough volumes into benign loads almost any amplifier will sound equivalent- but what you likely will have would be something that cannot in any sense provide the "power and majesty" that can be supplied by recorded music.
I agree that just output power alone is not a sufficient criterion for quality, and the existence of single ended triode tube amps driving relatively inefficient speakers as a preferred combination for many people suggests that there is probably no absolute set of criteria that can be applied anyway.
So I return to my assertion. Quality high power output amps, in circumstances such as those that I described, clearly outperform their lower powered competitors all other things being equal.
Also, most amps are designed with their rated distortion specified at full power or something similar and in general, distortion drops as the output amplitude drops due to the nature of the non-linearities that cause distortion in the first place. Of course, there are many caveats to this and I don't plan to list them right now, but in the instance where two amps have similar rated distortion it is often the case that the amp with higher output power has lower distortion at the same lower amplitude as a lower output power amp.
Of course, it is not necessarily the case but it's a reasonable statement as far as amplifier design is concerned.
 
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I'm starting to notice a common pattern in the threads on this site. It seems that the ones who do more bashing of other posters and become personally aggressive in their position are the ones that offer the least amount of technical knowledge to the discussion.
 
and can be dynam
Arguably, two amps with identical specs/measured performance at a given output power level will perform identically with a signal that does not cause any kind of pathology in the output- so if all that matters is the concept of unrealized power reserve then I concur, but isn't that just the trivial case?

Glad to see we're also on the same page and agree with most of your analyses. Trivial or not, I think the question of surplus (a/k/a unused) output capacity was central to the OP's query. Otherwise, I understand & appreciate the importance of equipment with the current supplies necessary for the most demanding situations. But if we're talking a 103 dB pair of 8 ohm Khorns, I can see very little benefit from powering them with a pair of megawatt Mark Levinson monoblocks for example, as opposed to say, a high quality low power amplifier. This is what I think the OP was trying to figure out and was attempting to keep my responses aligned with that issue without getting too deep into the weeds.
 
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I have a stupidly high power amp (525W into 8ohms) running my admittedly low sensitivity stand mount speakers. It sounds great and I don't perceive any loss of quality at very low power. I can't draw any conclusions from that though because I don't have an otherwise identical amp with a much lower power rating. I'm not sure such a thing would even really be possible because you'd need fewer power devices and that would mean a differences in the interactions between them.

I do wonder about amplitude linearity, both static and dynamic. It's not something you see tested and quoted. That may be because all amps are effectively perfect and it's not an issue, but I have my doubts.
 
I'm starting to notice a common pattern in the threads on this site. It seems that the ones who do more bashing of other posters and become personally aggressive in their position are the ones that offer the least amount of technical knowledge to the discussion.
Just re-read my responses to you - I was a bit smug let’s just say. You rubbed me the wrong way with your comment of my methods which would have been better asked as a question. Even yet, I was out of line. My apologies - no place for that here.

I’ve been here a while. So many threads that center around things which can easily be proven or disproven with zero interest of doing so. Our hobby is dying a slow death. We simply must, as a collective, stop opining and learn. When we learn, we’re in a position to teach. When we teach we recruit.

I was in the audio business for 3 decades - spent my last ten years at this little company called Rockford. I trained professionals for years on all facets - sales, technical, etc. I worked closely with the engineering, production, and competitive analysis departments in an effort to separate fact from fiction. My schtick was always the demonstrations and they were really effective. While my electrical background provides in-depth insight into the specs, my experience has shown its best to take little stock in them. Not everyone one agrees with that philosophy - and that’s A-OK.

I encourage any reader to adopt the scientific method in audio. It’s actually often quite easy. Nothing would make me happier than to hear the results you discover - even if they contradict my own.

Back to regular programming.
 
Just re-read my responses to you - I was a bit smug let’s just say. You rubbed me the wrong way with your comment of my methods which would have been better asked as a question. Even yet, I was out of line. My apologies - no place for that here.

I’ve been here a while. So many threads that center around things which can easily be proven or disproven with zero interest of doing so. Our hobby is dying a slow death. We simply must, as a collective, stop opining and learn. When we learn, we’re in a position to teach. When we teach we recruit.

I was in the audio business for 3 decades - spent my last ten years at this little company called Rockford. I trained professionals for years on all facets - sales, technical, etc. I worked closely with the engineering, production, and competitive analysis departments in an effort to separate fact from fiction. My schtick was always the demonstrations and they were really effective. While my electrical background provides in-depth insight into the specs, my experience has shown its best to take little stock in them. Not everyone one agrees with that philosophy - and that’s A-OK.

I encourage any reader to adopt the scientific method in audio. It’s actually often quite easy. Nothing would make me happier than to hear the results you discover - even if they contradict my own.

Back to regular programming.
I get it. No harm done. I wasn't making that comment about you only or just this thread. The confusion came because you never said you were listening to it except at the last post and I was left guessing what you were doing. I really was genuinely interested in what you were doing when I asked those questions. That's an impressive audio back-ground btw.
I think the only way to scientifically prove such a question would be to measure actual distortion at the speaker cone itself with the same model speakers with 8 and 4 ohm using one of those laser measurement devices. I'm sure any differences would be impossible to hear on good amps as you have pointed out. I have a subscription to Voice Coil magazine and they're always using things like that it seems. That magazine is almost too technical and not always a fun thing to read.
 
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I’ve been here a while. So many threads that center around things which can easily be proven or disproven with zero interest of doing so. Our hobby is dying a slow death. We simply must, as a collective, stop opining and learn. When we learn, we’re in a position to teach. When we teach we recruit.
It is unfortunate. Most people I talk to don't even know what a receiver or an amp is. Telling them about hi-fidelity can often be compared to telling a child about why a painting by Leonardo Di Vinci is good while they are still making scribble pictures, it doesn't translate. I have been tossing around the idea of starting an audio store that carries more vintage than new so people can be reintroduced to the hobby and actually hear and see things they didn't even know existed. But it's hard to tell at this point if the business is there to support it. My internet sales vary considerably from month to month, but I'm getting good feedback from the locals. I'm sure at the least, the high school / college age crowd will buy car audio from me. That still seems to have some following in this area.
 
I get it. No harm done. I wasn't making that comment about you only or just this thread. The confusion came because you never said you were listening to it except at the last post and I was left guessing what you were doing. I really was genuinely interested in what you were doing when I asked those questions. That's an impressive audio back-ground btw.
I think the only way to scientifically prove such a question would be to measure actual distortion at the speaker cone itself with the same model speakers with 8 and 4 ohm using one of those laser measurement devices. I'm sure any differences would be impossible to hear on good amps as you have pointed out. I have a subscription to Voice Coil magazine and they're always using things like that it seems. That magazine is almost too technical and not always a fun thing to read.
That laser measurement device is called a Klippel analyzer. And while I do have access to one locally, the analyzer is designed to measure only loudspeaker drivers mounted to a baffle. These are often used in cone and suspension design.

My point has always been - if we can’t hear it, can’t perceive it, why does it matter what it measures? We’re not talking a doppler radar or hubbell telescope where circuit design must be incredibly tight.

As for vintage audio, why not get your feet wet by buying / selling / trading on craigslist first?
 
That laser measurement device is called a Klippel analyzer. And while I do have access to one locally, the analyzer is designed to measure only loudspeaker drivers mounted to a baffle. These are often used in cone and suspension design.

My point has always been - if we can’t hear it, can’t perceive it, why does it matter what it measures? We’re not talking a doppler radar or hubbell telescope where circuit design must be incredibly tight.

As for vintage audio, why not get your feet wet by buying / selling / trading on craigslist first?
I don't think it makes a difference if it is beyond human perception. But the reasoning is that it puts a number behind the answer and proves what differences there are.
I do use craigs list and ebay, that's what I was referring to as internet sales. But having a store in a publicly visible location is different than having it on craigs list. You only see it on craigs list if you are looking for it. It doesn't work for recruiting new people to the hobby.
 
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