Dual 1229 Idler Wheels

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by Fernando, Mar 29, 2011.

  1. Fernando

    Fernando Active Member

    Messages:
    262
    Location:
    Cumming, GA
    With a new Jico SAS for the V15VMR on my Dual 1229, the only thing between me and audio nirvana is a slight noise from my 30+ year old idler wheel. What is the best way to recondition old Dual wheels? Is there a source of new old stock still around?

    Fernando
     
  2. Arkay

    Arkay Lunatic Member

    Messages:
    19,968
    Location:
    Hong Kong
    The usual approaches involve using a commercial rubber-renewal product to restore the original elasticity (as much as possible), plus a light touch with fine sandpaper while the wheel is turning, to restore roundness and grip.

    If you're in a hurry and can't find a product that renews rubber, you might try detergent or glycerine on the wheel; both are good for rubber. Meguire's rubber and vinyl cleaner and restorer (from auto-parts stores) is good, too. NEVER put any kind of oil on a rubber item; oil will chemically ruin most rubber products in a hurry. Be careful when lubricating the wheel's bearings, to not let any of the lubricant get on the rubber part of the wheel, not even a little bit from a drip or a careless finger.

    When sanding, take off JUST enough to remove the outermost layer of hardened rubber; you don't really want to alter the diameter, just give the surface back a little "tooth" so it will "grip" well. You must do this only when the wheel is spinning fast, so you keep the roundness (circle shape) of it. Less is usually better, when it comes to sanding, and try to keep the original shape/contour of the wheel; you may need to angle the sandpaper block a bit on each side.

    Also, remember that the other side of the equation is the surface that the idler wheel rubs against: Make sure it is absolutely clean, and free from any oils or waxes or lubricants. You may use something like 99% alcohol or lighter fluid or acetone to clean it; these will remove almost everything, and any residues will evaporate off completely. Make sure you give them time to fully evaporate, before letting the idler wheel come back into contact with them.

    If that isn't sufficient, then you can send the wheel out to any of several people online who make them like new again, by completely replacing the rubber portion.

    Sometimes the problem isn't just the rubber part, but also the bearing. Try cleaning and lubricating the bearing, and if it still isn't good, but the shaft is good, then look for another wheel from a donor unit. [It is usually best to keep wheel and shaft together, but you can replace either one independently.]

    For Lencos, you can buy after-market precision idler wheels made from titanium off of eBay, and even non-resonant support rods (shafts) for them, but I'm not sure if anything like that is available for Duals. A professionally-restored (new rubber) original one should come close.
     
    Last edited: Mar 29, 2011
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  3. voltcontrol

    voltcontrol Fizheuer Zieheuer

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  4. RevMen

    RevMen The Reverend Menacer

    Messages:
    1,924
    Location:
    Fort Collins, CO
    There are occasional sources of NOS Dual idlers. I've seen them for sale for $90, and I found one for my 1218 on the bay for about $30. Even though it had never been used and was still wrapped in plastic, it really wasn't in any better shape than a well-cared for idler that had been used. It's not the use that degrades them, it's the age of the rubber (and what type of environment it's been in for the last 40 years).

    I had one idler rebuilt and it's as good as new. This is the best option by if you're considering replacing your idler. It's only slightly more money than buying another one. I used Terry's Rubber Rollers for my rebuild and I have no complaints.
     
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  5. NoTransistors

    NoTransistors Dual Turntables Super-Restorer Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,593
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Never coat or soak that precious wheel. I have yet to see any but the earliest 1219 idler turn hard.
    Sand with fine paper while it is rotating. Oil the support bearing.
    Then tweak, tweak, tweak.
    The tweak that deals exclusively with the idler is to polish the platter contact surface to a mirror-finish. Works like magic [assuming that the motor and idler and platter bearings are in decent shape].

    And yes, Terry's is a great option if needed. Seems to do great work.
     
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  6. gillsev

    gillsev Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    788
    Location:
    Tulsa, OK
    +1 Terry does an excellent job! He did my idler wheel for my 1229Q and is now as quiet as direct dirive. :thmbsp:

    http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/
     
  7. CohibaJoe

    CohibaJoe AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,470
    Location:
    Central Jersey
    +1..Yes..Used for 1229 and PL-909 Tape.
     
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  8. quadtech

    quadtech Active Member

    Messages:
    484
    I recently acquired a Dual 1229 turntable and am going through all
    the information to service/lubing it.

    Many of the pictures of the 1229 idler wheel show the #8 under the
    Dual logo, but mine has #7 on it.
    Is there any difference between the #7 and #8 wheels?

    I measured the #7 wheel on mine and it is 2 3/8" dia, and the
    rubber is firm but pliable, no dents etc, so I may not need a replacement
    yet, but curious to know.

    Also, the C clip for the platter shaft is missing, so appreciate if someone
    could post the size of this.
    I don't have any small ones (8mm/9mm) to try, so need to order/hunt
    for the right size.
     
  9. markallen

    markallen Luddite Tendencies

    Messages:
    1,125
    Location:
    Bismarck ND
    Reviving this thread for a comment: Dual 1229. I'd cleaned the platter drive surface and the pulley, cleaned and re-lubed all related mechanisms so I KNEW those were operating properly. Still, the platter just wouldn't spin up as it was supposed to. Motor was strong, too, but I just wasn't sure the idler was adequately pliable, even though it looked good.

    Sanding did the trick. The pulley fit nicely into the chuck of my 2-speed cordless drill, and I set it to the fastest speed. Used 400 grit and lightly pressed the paper against the spinning edge, moving the paper randomly, side to side - probably just a few minutes total. Reinstalled the idler, and the platter spins up fine, and is able to drive the arm mechanism without hesitation. Cost: nothing. Thanks for the tip!:thmbsp:
     
  10. stereofisher

    stereofisher For the Love of the Music Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,881
    Location:
    Southeast NY
    Listen to the man..

    Havent seen a 1229 wheel go bad either. A light sanding as Seth said is all it should need. And the bearing. My earlier 1010S sold in '66 was hard as a rock. I was lucky and had a replacement. Your 1229 is a keeper.

    Eric
     
  11. stereofisher

    stereofisher For the Love of the Music Subscriber

    Messages:
    3,881
    Location:
    Southeast NY
    Dont worry about that clip

    Those clips are a pain in the ass. Best thing you can do is leave it off. think about it. When set up, the platter isnt going any place. You move it, the platter comes off. Got 4 Duals, tossed the clip.
     
  12. Gang-Twanger

    Gang-Twanger Resident Wharfedaliophool

    Messages:
    15,754
    Location:
    CT
    This is good to know. I picked up a 1019 several years ago and had it looked at by a repair place in the area. They fixed the cue'ing mechanism, plus I had them make sure everything else was okay, and they told me that both my idler-wheel and the stylus/cartridge were fine, but it would be nice to be able to pull some extra performance out of this thing on my own. I'm not sure if I'm up for removing the idler-wheel/pulley by myself, but if so, then I'll give it a shot. The 1019 is older than the 1229 and 1219, so it couldn't hurt.
     
  13. Flounder

    Flounder AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Philly Burbs, PA

    I realize this is a really old thread, but is there a manual or pdf online somewhere that describes the parts listed in NoTransistors response? I'm a visual learner so something with pictures would be helpful. :D
    >Oil the support bearing
    >polish the platter contact surface to a mirror-finish

    I've sanded my wheel, and it eliminated 80% of the so called rumble, but there is still a slight sound of a vacuum cleaner running in the background at the beginning of the record and in between tracks. I'd like to try these techniques, but am not sure what the "support bearing" is or what the "platter contact surface" is. I've also read that filling the underside of the platter rim with caulk helps reduce noise too. Anyone try this?

    Thanks for revisiting this discussion. I love my 1229 (it's my favorite deck) and would love to see it run at it's highest potential. :)
     
  14. NoTransistors

    NoTransistors Dual Turntables Super-Restorer Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,593
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Idler wheel has a bronze bushing as it's integral support base. This rotates on a stationary steel pin.
    Did you get the oxidation off the inside of the platter rim [the contact surface]? This is where much of that 'Electrolux/Hoover/Dyson sort of noise will emit from.
    The platter tweak with the caulking is what I do to every Dual. Who do you think suggested it? Does not do much for rumble, but does create a better overall sound.
    You did clean/oil the motor, I assume.
     
  15. Flounder

    Flounder AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Philly Burbs, PA
    Hi, Seth!
    Thanks for the quick response. And yes, I should have given you credit for the caulk idea. It was one of your posts that I think I read that. :) OK so the contact surface is the surface of the hole in the wheel? I havent cleaned that. What should I use to clean that? Should I clean the stationary steel pin too? I would guess so.

    The previous owner claimed it was serviced a few years or so ago, but judging by the amount of Hoover noise, I'd say it was serviced by a hack or it wasnt at all. I plan clean/lube the motor next (but might need your help in describing how to do that).

    Thanks so much for the reply.
     
  16. TomInTacoma

    TomInTacoma d/b/a Vinyl Reclamation Sponsor

    Messages:
    708
    Location:
    DuPont, WA
    Manuals galore for the 1229 are here: https://www.vinylengine.com/library/dual/1229.shtml
     
  17. Flounder

    Flounder AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Philly Burbs, PA
    Thanks. I'm looking at the service manual now. My idler wheel isnt beveled like the one in the manual illustration. Mine looks flat. Will this impact noise levels too? Or degrade the sound quality in any way?
     
  18. NoTransistors

    NoTransistors Dual Turntables Super-Restorer Subscriber

    Messages:
    4,593
    Location:
    Brooklyn
    Cleaning? I am referring to the inner lip of platter. Just oil the support pin of the wheel.
    The bronze will soak it up a bit.
     
  19. Flounder

    Flounder AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    79
    Location:
    Philly Burbs, PA
    I dont mean to be dense. I'm just trying to understand the termonology. Are we talking about the idler wheel when you say "platter?" Or are we talking about the platter where the vinyl sits on during play?

    >polish the platter contact surface to a mirror-finish
    >Did you get the oxidation off the inside of the platter rim [the contact surface]?
    Is this the inside of the hole of the idler wheel? Or the inside of the hole of the record platter?

    >Cleaning? I am referring to the inner lip of platter. Just oil the support pin of the wheel.
    Is the "support pin of the whee"l the support pin that the idler wheel sits on? Or is it what what the record platter goes onto?

    Once again apologies for the lack of understanding.
     
  20. moodydan

    moodydan I love the punk rock. Subscriber

    Messages:
    615
    Location:
    Versailles. KY
    The platter is what the record is placed on. It's big. On the underside, where the idler wheel makes contact, is the platter contact surface. Polish the crap out of it.

    The idler wheel is what makes contact with the platter and makes it spin. It's smaller. It sits on a support pin. You should put some oil in the center of the bronze bushing, which will allow for smooth spinning on the support pin.
     

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