Electrolytic Capacitor Shoot-Out

[rhythmsandy]

well after considerable time I got a new update from my end

1. Mundorf Mlytic AG Psu caps
2. Nichicon KS > used before but ill tell u the importance of it.
3. Mundorf Supreme input capacitors 2.2uf
4. DUELUND CAST 630V Copper input caps..

Ill tell you how they sound in short first

Mundorf Mlytic AG: They are more neutral on every single note its like adding alot of value to the notes everything is just more natural than any Nichicon caps I have used.

But there is one downside of using Mundorf compared to Nichicon KS. Nichicon KS is the super transparent cap dont get me wrong Mundorf is good in revealing the details but not as good as KS. If your speakers are soft sounding then KS would be a better choice but you can even consider using Mundorf psu caps but Im using both as in the combination they have best of both worlds.

Nichicon KS: This one rips apart like microscope on the soundstage everything is super clear but tonality wise its behind the Mundorf Psu.

Mundorf supreme input caps 2.2uf: They have very good but not relaxed sound but one more thing with Mundorf psu caps and Mundorf supreme caps they sound best but it doesnt give you the euphoric bump like silmic but its much better than stock caps out there. worth the upgrade? yes but there are something even better...

DUELUND CAST 630V copper: This is one cap used as input coupling cap. One word amazing expressive sound. Just mind blowing. You will start leaving the general audiophilic words and start talking about communication of the instruments and believe me I even watched a movie with this first time i feel tension when watching an action sequence... ! well what else I can say.

Each costing about 300USD after one of my client listening these he ordered all his home theater system multi channel amp built with these whopping 11 caps..!

Infact its world`s first home theater multichannel amplifier with Duelund...! its going to be even on what hifi News...

my website just launched still alot of work in progress..
www.inventionaudio.com

 

[patfont]

Nice mini review! As to Marantz the M-Lytics and KS are great choices, and mixing KS with Silmic II on the power supply for example is the ticket! I like the M-Lytics for the smaller Marantz Receivers due to the restriction in their small diameters. Obviously the Supremes and Duelunds are reserved for hi-end equipment as coupling caps and again where they will fit as they are huge!

insert: POST below

:worthless

well after considerable time I got a new update from my end

1. Mundorf Mlytic AG Psu caps
2. Nichicon KS > used before but ill tell u the importance of it.
3. Mundorf Supreme input capacitors 2.2uf
4. DUELUND CAST 630V Copper input caps..

Ill tell you how they sound in short first

Mundorf Mlytic AG: They are more neutral on every single note its like adding alot of value to the notes everything is just more natural than any Nichicon caps I have used.

But there is one downside of using Mundorf compared to Nichicon KS. Nichicon KS is the super transparent cap dont get me wrong Mundorf is good in revealing the details but not as good as KS. If your speakers are soft sounding then KS would be a better choice but you can even consider using Mundorf psu caps but Im using both as in the combination they have best of both worlds.

Nichicon KS: This one rips apart like microscope on the soundstage everything is super clear but tonality wise its behind the Mundorf Psu.

Mundorf supreme input caps 2.2uf: They have very good but not relaxed sound but one more thing with Mundorf psu caps and Mundorf supreme caps they sound best but it doesnt give you the euphoric bump like silmic but its much better than stock caps out there. worth the upgrade? yes but there are something even better...

DUELUND CAST 630V copper: This is one cap used as input coupling cap. One word amazing expressive sound. Just mind blowing. You will start leaving the general audiophilic words and start talking about communication of the instruments and believe me I even watched a movie with this first time i feel tension when watching an action sequence... ! well what else I can say.

Each costing about 300USD after one of my client listening these he ordered all his home theater system multi channel amp built with these whopping 11 caps..!

Infact its world`s first home theater multichannel amplifier with Duelund...! its going to be even on what hifi News...

my website just launched still alot of work in progress..
www.inventionaudio.com

 

[chip]

I'm still gathering everything (information and parts) to prepare my 2220B for my first recapping project. Been going back and forth through this thread for I don't know how long. Some nights became a blur. I have settled on using Pafont's final recipe of parts (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/in...pacitor-shoot-out.381961/page-26#post-5044837) as my starting point with a small exception (see below.)

Anyway, I have a question regarding the main filter caps. In a the thread "Marantz 2220B Capacitor List/Suggestions" which I believe preceded this one, within the first post (http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/marantz-2220b-capacitor-list-suggestions.372300/) there was a cap suggestion of a Nichicon KG Gold Tune 10,000uf 50V. I'm greener than green with anything technical-electrical. My question: is there a downside (problem/danger) with using a cap whose capacitance is a lot higher than originally prescribed? I ask because I'd like to use Nichicon KS in there but Digikey only has Nichicon KS 10000uf 63V readily available. Mouser has 8200uf 63V on order ready to ship they say in Jan but then also says factory lead time is 17wks.

Thanks in advance for any help.


P.S. (if you see it) Patfont, how's the Striper fishing?

 

[gslikker]

Depending on transformer current capability, many times it is safe to insure the rectifiers do not get defective when providing more peak current to bigger main filter caps.
This happens when switching on the amp.
So the diodes/bridge rectifier may have to be replaced, depending on what is in, now.
As I understand from the wording you are increasing capacity.

 

[KutzlerTrans]

What about if a current rush limiter thermistor like a c-90 was used? (c-90)being an example.

Obviously its not necessary to get crazy with filter caps, but i figured i would throw this out there since i have been asked about upping filter caps and did not have the theory of why we cannot until Rbuckner & gslikker answered it. Thanks, John.

 

[chip]

Thanks you for the replies (but still a little over my head.)

I forgot to mention, in that earlier thread suggesting the alternative cap, there was a post asking about the use of a 8200uf 50v cap that was available. One reply to it was "You'll be OK with 8200uF. The original filters had a tolerance of -20/+50%, so you're within that range." If I have this right then, with the original value for the main filter caps at 6800uf 35v, the upper range for tolerance would be 10200uf? Is that too close to the upper limit for safe operation?

Can anybody verify or point me in the direction of that tolerance spec? Is it printed on the cap itself (my 2220B is in storage, so I have not had a chance to look at it lately.) I went to looked at the service manual (page 26) and it lists the the main filter caps but no tolerance was mentioned like some of the other caps. Is this the right place?

clipped from the service

 

[patfont]

For the 2220B I love these, drop in fit!

http://www.digikey.com/product-detail/en/LAO-50V682MS47PX#B/604-1096-ND/2171147

 

[gslikker]

I like the idea of an inrush current limiter as Kutzlertrans suggests,
I have no experience with this.

I looked in the schematic and it seems the diodes are supposed to be 3 amps max and voltage in your amp is not high so probably it is okay when using them with higher capacity.

Now, the original caps are 6800, buying 8200 now and knowing nowadays "they" give nothing for free your new caps are probably close to 8200

 

[chip]

patfont, I'll give the LAOs a try. I think I became so infatuated with the Nichicon KS because of your praise of them as being some of the most transparent only behind the Mundorf and Jensen 4 pole.

 

[EchoWars]

I like the idea of an inrush current limiter as Kutzlertrans suggests,
I have no experience with this.

Inrush limiters are a bad idea with SS gear operating in a Class aB mode. Current draw is too variable. It's like spending all that big money on expensive caps, and putting a resistor in the AC line, which will render your cap choice a moot point. Might as well recap with 45 year-old worn-out caps.

Thermal-type current limiters work fine with SS gear that runs in pure Class A, or with tube gear where the line current draw is reasonably steady, but on 98% of SS gear it's a terrible idea.

 

[gslikker]

Ok I see your point.
Once I even came across thermistors in the secondary winding of a transformer, in an old Rogers Ravensbourne amp. Guess diode protection. They were bypassed because of the diode bridge replacement. The picture of old situation is here, the thermistors looked like they were eaten by some fungus......

 

[patfont]

patfont, I'll give the LAOs a try. I think I became so infatuated with the Nichicon KS because of your praise of them as being some of the most transparent only behind the Mundorf and Jensen 4 pole.

I like the KS for power supply duty, I do not think you can do much better then LAO's for the 2220B, please let me know what you think when you get it up and running.

 

[KutzlerTrans]

Hey Glenn, what is the formula for filter cap replacement values.

I brought up the current limiter as a way to slow down the filling of a much bigger capacitor and take full responsibility for its stupidity. Fortunately i can claim stupidity because i am learning. Nobody has ever done it for the reasons you point out, But is there a way protect the rectifier if someone like me decides to add extra capacitance to their system???.
I am learning as i go, but its better not to learn the hard way. Is there a value % that is safe to raise? Understanding that not all amps are built the same.
I have had an extra set of 18,000 uf filters paralleled with the 18,000 i have installed in my marantz 2325. Up until a few weeks ago, i forgot about them. now i understand that it can cause problems. So far so good, but rectifiers have fresh compound and the cover is off the unit. I run it hard sometimes when i'm cleaning and tearing down transmissions. I intend to add another set of hpm200's and may actually need them. right now i do not notice anything with or without them.
I have a habit of turning the volume down before shutting it off. Whats your thoughts on this subject.
I Thanks, John

 

[EchoWars]

Rectifiers aren't usually the problem. Most high-current rectifiers can take 100~300A for the few milliseconds required to get the initial surge out of the way (that, and older units generally use the 'old-style' E/I transformers that already act as a bit of a current limiter). The problem is usually that the power switch takes a beating. So yeah, I worry about the power switch more than the rectifiers. But there's a solution, if you want to go to the trouble.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/in...orth-5-and-an-hour-or-so-of-your-time.504673/

 

[hirscwi]

Rectifiers aren't usually the problem. Most high-current rectifiers can take 100~300A for the few milliseconds required to get the initial surge out of the way (that, and older units generally use the 'old-style' E/I transformers that already act as a bit of a current limiter). The problem is usually that the power switch takes a beating. So yeah, I worry about the power switch more than the rectifiers. But there's a solution, if you want to go to the trouble.

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/in...orth-5-and-an-hour-or-so-of-your-time.504673/

I used this solution on a Marantz 1120 in which I replaced the unregulated power supply with a kit using MUR rectifiers and doubled the capacitance. The only problem was that it started blowing the standard fuse during startup (only occasionally). The triac is easy to install.

 

[rhythmsandy]

after long and tiring process of choosing capacitors I can conclude that use Silmics and mix match.

ONE STATEMENT VERY CLEAR is that never use Silmics in IC based circuits I mean Integrated circuits. These silmics sound very bad and veiled in the IC based circuits but in discrete is where they shine. Excellent caps but if you want to spice up a bit add Nichicon Muse.

I have used and tested with both Nichicon KS and also Mundorf Mlytic AG 10000uf/63.

It took damn 2 years for me to figure out why the silmic was not fitting in my system. I finally found its because i was using some ICs in the circuit.

 

[jstang]

5 years later and we are back again to Silmics...... Ground hog day was last week?

 

[patfont]

Yep rhythmsandy I continue to use: Silmic II, Nichicon FG, Nichicon ES, Nichicon KS, Nichicon KG, and Elna LAO depending on unit location, function and size perimeters.

 

[fjb44]

Results Hi Pat, I have a Marantz 4270 , the P/S board P800 caps are swollen and I loose my fm audio. Tapping c816 cap brings it back. Thinking of replacing all caps on P800 board with ELNA Silmc 11. can you suggest where to buy . Thanks fjb

Cap Shoot-Out Final Summary:

Acceptable: Panasonic FC’s

This cap has been the standard bearer for quit some time. It is very neutral in sound and really does not do anything wrong. There are just some things that it does not do.
1. The sound field is 2D
2. The low end is rolled off in the lowest octave
3. The hi end is recessed
4. The mids and in particular vocals lack body

Who is it for: You just want to restore your Marantz to get another 20 years out of it and could care less about fancy imaging terms and vocals with body, and your speakers do not go down that far in the bass anyway. You will be very happy for a very long time with these. If this does not describe you read on.

Excellent: Nichicon KZ/FG

These caps are very neutral and very clean sounding. The frequency extremes are all there. There is just a small midrange scoop, and you may or may not be able to deal with it with the Marantz Mid control. These are like the Panasonic FC’s for someone who is looking for a little more. The vocals have nice body (can sound just a tad thin on some, but not a deal breaker.) They image well and there is sound stage width and depth. A truly lovely cap, excellent sounding. If you want the lowest risk of being unsatisfied with the caps you are installing use these. I see no possible way you would not like them. They will not do anything funny to the music and they are the least colored of the caps I tried.

Who are they for: You are restoring your Marantz and you want to do it right and you do not want any surprises with the final outcome. You have nice speakers and a decent table with cartridge, and can appreciate some subtle things in music like enjoying a nice sound stage etc.

Special Category: Elna Silmic 11:

A very special cap, it will imbue the music with that liquid smooth “tube like” sound. The soundstage width and depth are excellent; imaging is superb and rock solid. These caps just never lose control they always sound smooth and relaxed. The mids are huge sounding (in a sound space way) it makes vocals sound very seductive. You will be tapping your feet with these; they get you involved and draw you into the music. The low end moves air if your system is capable and the highs are very sweet sounding.

Who are they for: You have modern speakers that image well, and can throw out a nice soundstage. You are using high end type speaker cable and a very nice cartridge and you are looking for the lush sound of tubes out of your Marantz-these are the ticket. There are however some restrictions because they are somewhat gently colored. The upper bass and mids are a little bumped up in my opinion. If you have JBL 100’s they are also colored in this region, this may be a bit too much. As I side note I have owned the JBL 100’s and love them, this example just came to mind.

*******When I was done the Shoot-Out these were the caps that I initially put back in.

Special Category: Elna Cerafine

These are ridiculously clean and transparent sounding. They do not have the “tube sound” of the Silmics but are still smooth and sweet. They have an open window to the music from the upper mids all the way out to the high end. They do have a gentle bump in the mids that will move the vocals forward in the mix, and the high end has a gentle rise but is never shrill, just clean transparent and accurate. When I played Reference Recordings Dafos the song, “ Reunion,” there were parts that sounded so realistic I turned my head to look to each side of the room because I though this could not possibly be coming from the speakers.

Who are they for: As above you are looking for a high end type sound out of your Marantz receiver. The rest of your components are up to snuff and you can appreciate a musical revelation so to speak. You may not want to mate these to a speaker that has a hot high end, could be a little too much.

*******So these are the caps I could not get out of my head, I was willing to give up the lush sound of the Silmics for that open window that I got attached to when listening to the Cerafine’s.

Well that’s it, I did order Silmic 11’s and Cerafine’s for my phono board and will try both and report back.

I am not wanting people to go pulling caps out of their power supply board because of this thread, if you are indeed doing it and have the technical skills to do so please report back to this thread with your choice of what you used and your thoughts on the resulting sound.

Any questions just respond to the thread I was trying not to get side tracked , so did not comment much wanted to keep the thread on track.

Cheers!


Equipment Used:

B&W 685 Speakers: “The Absolute Sound Editors Choice” IMHO best speakers under a grand.

Paul Speltz Anti Cables speaker cables: ”The Absolute Sound Editors Choice” Amazing sounds like you are not using speaker cables.

Pioneer PL10 Turntable (ha ha I know) Totally reworked with sound dampening, rewired, and braced. (Sounds better then my AR)

Audio Technica 125LC: Very neutral and smooth perfect to use for this shoot-out. I had also just installed a NOS stylus.

Marantz 2220B Receiver: Totally stock with original Marantz outputs.

 

[CohibaJoe]

Yep rhythmsandy I continue to use: Silmic II, Nichicon FG, Nichicon ES, Nichicon KS, Nichicon KG, and Elna LAO depending on unit location, function and size perimeters.

^^^^^What Pat said^^^^^