Finally acquired a X-202, but it has an issue

Steve -- Something surely seems amiss with the phase reverse switch/wiring. It shouldn't do anything but basically reverse the speaker connections to the right speaker. If the switch allows the right channel speaker to operate in the normal position, but the sound all but disappears when the switch is set to reverse, then either the switch or its connections must be at fault, as the wiring between the switch and the rear connections is always used regardless of which position the switch is in. Be sure to get that resolved before turning the volume up high with a source playing but the right speaker not sounding due to the phase switch being in the reverse position. That scenario effectively amounts to no load being placed on the amplifier, which under high volume conditions is not healthy for any one of a number of components.

OK. Some discussion on the minimum volume signal bleed issue in the X-202: As a basic statement, it is the result of the physical design of the unit, in conjunction with the use of modern high output digital sources.

The X-202 is not the only product to suffer from the "won't turn down" issue. For example, I have a Scott LC21 preamp, that was meticulously built, that would exhibit the same symptoms that Steve is describing with his X-202. There are others as well. At the heart of the issue is (typically) modern CD players, that rather routinely output 2 volts of signal, which is 4 times the rated input voltage for the Scott, and at least 8 times that for the Fisher. Some units, like Heath's AA-141 preamplifier simply roll over and give up -- not displaying any bleed-over issues -- but producing gross amounts of overload distortion at any setting of the volume control. To make that unit really behave and operate properly with modern sources requires nothing less that a complete redesign of the unit. In the X-202, such extremes are not required, but correcting the possibility of minimum volume bleeding does require some deliberate corrective action.

The high source levels can also produce other problems in vintage equipment as well, causing volume controls to operate down "in the weeds", where channel tracking is usually anything but good. A number of folks use external attenuator pieces that cause the volume control to operate up higher in its range of rotation, simply to address the channel inequity that can occur at lower settings. But the attenuators are also helpful in subduing signal bleed issues as well, because they reduce the signal level floating around inside the chassis, and therefore, the tendency to produce bleeding from one circuit, to another. So, one approach to the signal bleed issue is to use external attenuators for all the benefits they can offer, and call it a day.

In my own listening room, my Denon CD player has a variable output, whose setting has been set at 50% of its 2 volt rated output for so long that I forget about the fact that its output is reduced. In the case of my own equipment, the reduced setting is not used to address any potential signal bleed, channel imbalance, or gross distortion issues but rather, to simply obtain a smoother volume control "action", versus one that would be rather touchy by comparison. With the client's X-202 that I have here, along with my own X-202, this reduced output doesn't present any observed operational problems, as in, problems that draw your attention as is the case with Steve's unit of this thread. However, with an intentional scrutiny of the volume control's minimum volume action in both my own and my client's unit, I too observed that technically, the right channel does not reach the same minimum volume level that the left channel does. Then, remembering the reduced output that I use, I ran the Denon's output up to maximum (2 volt) output. This definitely made the minimum volume level more pronounced, and more unbalanced between the channels as well -- not to the extreme that Steve is indicating -- but enough that with three units now all displaying the same tendency to one degree or another, it meant that likely, something in the original design or build of these units was contributing to the effect, and therefore not only for my own clients, but the good of the Fisher community as a whole, should be investigated.

In a nutshell then, what's happening is that because of the much higher than ever expected input levels, coupled with the high sensitivity of the X-202 design -- and where the volume control appears in the circuit, it means that there is plenty of opportunity for circuit interaction, where the signal at one point, can jump to other areas it was never intended to be at -- at least, not from that circuit point anyway. This is all aided by the high input impedance levels that vacuum tube amplifier stages typically represent, in close quarters with the two Cathode Follower stages that the X-202 employs. These stages act like blow torch transmitters of the highest signal level that appears within the chassis for other stages and points in the circuit to pick up. At normal listening levels, this bleeding is inconsequential as the actual level of signal that bleeds to other areas is really quite small and very frequency dependent -- unless the input signal level is much high than specification and the volume control is turned to minimum: then you hear the effects of this scenario rather easily, which is only made worse by a small quiet room and high sensitivity speakers. Packing a lot of performance into a relatively small chassis is always a recipe for potential concerns (which is what the X-202 represents), and is exactly the reason that the highest performance systems always include separate pieces to handle small and large signal amplification. The build of the X-202 was certainly good enough for the source levels of the day, but in the audio environment of this day, some examples of it can become challenged.

The answer to the problem is simple: just add some shielding to prevent the signal interaction. That's true, but the trick is to find out where and how much. As is usually the case, the real answer lies in a combination of shielding the components that can be shielded, while relocating those that can't be otherwise shielded to a less sensitive location -- and doing it all in a neat, orderly fashion, so as not to make the modification draw attention to itself. After a couple of rather intense days of going after this issue, I've developed a series of four modifications that when implemented in the X-202, will make any signal bleed between circuits a nonissue. More specifically, they allow a three volt rms signal (overload point) to be applied to any of the high level selector switch or Tape Monitor inputs, and require your ear to be within 1 ft of 101 db efficient speakers to hear any source material from either speaker. Standing in front of these (Cornwall) speakers in a small dead quiet room, the minimum volume signal with this input level applied is inaudible at even a close field listening position. The reduction is significant in units that suffer excessively from this issue.

I will start a new thread to outline the actual procedures of the modifications, but suffice to say, there a few rules that need to be observed when restoring an X-202:

1. Around the tone control amplifier stage of the X-202 (Sams V4), neat, tight work is a must. Long leads are an antenna just asking for bleed type problems to occur.

2. Ditto for using large, oversized boutique or otherwise replacement components in this area. They too act as giant antennas to pick up unwanted signals.

3. The bottom plate is also part of the shielding relative to this issue. Not only does its installation minimize hum and noise in the X-202, but signal bleed as well.

Finally, the X-202B is the continuation of the X-202 line, and it's interesting to note just how compartmentalized the build of that amplifier is -- almost surely to address potential issues of bleeding that would otherwise exist from one unit to the next in a hand wired, mass produced piece of equipment. In that way then, the X-202B is an improved build over that of the X-202. I should have a thread on the modifications that provide the proper shielding posted soon.

Dave
This has truly been a challenge, it seems every time I try to trouble shoot the problem it changes slightly, so most of the things I posted that were happening have changed. I plan on doing one more assessment that includes listing some voltage readings, and what the unit is actually doing now. I have replaced every small capacitor in this unit except the two that are supposed to be .68 uf, those were replaced by the previous owner using 1 uf film. The left channel has responded well to the restoration work so far, and the output tubes bias in easily on both channels. But the right channel now has gotten even thinner sounding and slightly distorted along with having the cross talk present when volume is turned down. I have swapped every tube with very good tested replacements with no results, checked and re checked most every connection and control. So I will study what you have posted Dave and hopefully find the answer. I am pleased with the left channel, it sounds as good as the Gordon restored unit on that side anyway, so I'll call that progress! Thanks again for your time and effort spent helping!
 
Gadget -- Absolutely, and that is my point in the forth paragraph. Amazon carries them in different attenuation levels as a simple barrel with an RCA plug and jack -- one at each end of the barrel: you plug the barrel into the amplifier, and then the source into the jack at the rear of the barrel. To bring a CD signal down to that which is more typical of what most vintage amps saw back in the day would require at least a 10 db reduction, and likely more like about 14 db.

Dave
 
I recall one of my units having a wonky slide switch. It wasn't dirty. I just wasn't making sufficient contact on one side. I pulled my hair for a couple of weeks until I finally spotted the problem which created symptoms very similar to yours

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The switch on the left was the one that needed correction. Not readily apparent unless you compare the two side by side. As you can see, the back of the switch pulled away causing the spring contacts to float. In my case it made one channel tinny and buzzy.

Might be worth an inspection.
 
And another thing to watch for as well: Face plates that are not well centered enough to allow the slide switches enough travel room in both directions. I've seen that happen say more than once on more than one model.

Dave
 
The main voltage issue I have found is the right channel, is it's showing -8.4V on pin 2 and the left channel -11.5V. that's after setting the bias at .59V on each channel. I'm going to double check the big resistors connected to the right channel and see if any are way off their spec.
 
That is the result of the DC Balance control for that channel being set well off of its center position. That could be because the tubes themselves are not well balanced and so requires the setting to be well off of center, or because the control is just set wrong. Also make sure that the 47K resistors associated with that control are relatively equal in value.

Dave
 
I adjusted the balance and bias again and have them showing around -10.7V for all four tubes on pin 2, but it really didn't perk up the right channel any. The right channel is about two notches weaker than the left, and lacks some of the bass that the left has. The weakness problem and the cross talk in the right channel seem to be all that is left to sort out. I went ahead and ordered some replacement resistors to replace all the big ones in this amp, and as soon as the can cap sleeve shows up, I will replace the last two cans. Tubes have all been checked, and the outputs matched pretty well. When I hook my CD or I-pod into the tape monitor circuit, it plays the best but still has a weaker right channel and cross talk going on. The aux jacks seem to make the right channel even more weaker than the left, and slightly distorted. I have the speaker wires hooked directly, and not going through the phase circuit. I considered checking voltages in the preamp section when I have time.
 
With the Balance control centered, if you turn the Stereo Dimension control clear over to mono, does the sound then balance between the channels? Or is the right channel still noticeably weaker?

Dave
 
With the Balance control centered, if you turn the Stereo Dimension control clear over to mono, does the sound then balance between the channels? Or is the right channel still noticeably weaker?

Dave
It is still weaker, but because the two channels put out the same sound it sounds better. It actually seems like it lowers the left output a bit, but when I turn the balance knob in mono, it still shows the right being weaker.
 
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OK, so if that's true, then the problem (or part of it anyway) must be in the power amplifier section of the right channel (Sams V10, V11, V12). Two things to check:

1. Measure the value of R104 (Sams) -- should be 470K . If it's even close to within 10%, that's fine for now.

2. Check the setting of the Phase Inverter adjustment (with the power turned OFF):

A. Measure the resistance of R110 in your unit (18K), and record it's exact value.

B. Measure the resistance between the V10 side of C61, and chassis ground. Leave the meter leads connected, and adjust the right channel phase inverter control so that your meter reads the same resistance as that measured in step A.

Let us know!

Dave
 
OK, so if that's true, then the problem (or part of it anyway) must be in the power amplifier section of the right channel (Sams V10, V11, V12). Two things to check:

1. Measure the value of R104 (Sams) -- should be 470K . If it's even close to within 10%, that's fine for now.

2. Check the setting of the Phase Inverter adjustment (with the power turned OFF):

A. Measure the resistance of R110 in your unit (18K), and record it's exact value.

B. Measure the resistance between the V10 side of C61, and chassis ground. Leave the meter leads connected, and adjust the right channel phase inverter control so that your meter reads the same resistance as that measured in step A.

Let us know!

Dave


Thanks Dave!
The one thing I have yet to do is adjust the phase inverter controls, I couldn't find the explanation on how to do it on this model.

I will check the other items you mention when I get a chance, I am throwing a block party tomorrow so I have to get things ready for that, then get back to the X202.
 
What? WHAT?!! You would stop your non-stop Fisher work to have a life??? We'll be keeping our eye on you.......:)

Dave
 
HERESY! BLASPHEMY A Block Party????? And you didn't invite us OTHER FISHER FREAKS. I say burn him at the STAKE, or WITH the STEAK!
 
HERESY! BLASPHEMY A Block Party????? And you didn't invite us OTHER FISHER FREAKS. I say burn him at the STAKE, or WITH the STEAK!
No I'm not using my Heresy's, going with my CF-3's for more impact listening. :rockon:;)
And I'm sorry to say none of my Fisher gear will be used, not enough wattage for what I'm trying to do. Expecting 150 to 200 people.
 
I still have a couple of the old speaker cabinets from the band I was in, and a couple of 120 watt 6L6 based amps for that very sort of thing........ Nothing quite like rattling a few drinks off the table!

Dave
 
I still have a couple of the old speaker cabinets from the band I was in, and a couple of 120 watt 6L6 based amps for that very sort of thing........ Nothing quite like rattling a few drinks off the table!

Dave
I did a sound check Wednesday with the Klipsch CF-3's and my Soundcraftsman MA-5002 / SP-4002 combo, it really made a few people come out of their houses to investigate. Let's just say it was very impressive. :thumbsup:
 
I'll bet the I-phone set was going "WTF was THAT"?....and it blew thru more than a couple sets of earbuds!
 
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