FM sensitivity & long distance FM station

Great lineup of receivers!
I have the 9400, 9600, and a 5590 (a black 1250), and I have had the 1050.
The best RECEIVER is the 1250/5590.
The Kenwood, by perhaps the narrowest of margins, perhaps reaches furthest. The Pioneer, though, 'sounds' better (to me).
The 9400 is hugely overlooked. It was their TOTL model until the 9600 came along.
Since they all have wood (not the 9600, kinda Spartan) and brushed aluminum sytle, if all are about equal in condition (operating condition), the KR-9400 would probably be the steal.
If they're about the same $$, without doubt, get the SX-1250.
Remember, these two companies just went hammers & tongs at each other to trump the other guy.
Pioneer's amps, Kenwood's tuners. Yeee-haw!
Clear as mud, now, eh?

pete
 
Hi again Blinky;

Yes indeed all the receivers you have listed are fine examples of vintage at it's best. I have a KR-9600 and SX-1980 and I don't think there would be a case where one will recieve a signal that the other can't. That's probably true of all you have listed. If these TOTL and near TOTL don't pull in your station then your next step would be looking at upgrading the antenna or feedline or possibly a preamp at the antenna.

Keep us posted on the hunt.

Lefty
 
antenna- fm sensitivity-long distance

Hi, Lefty, Bully, and everybody. Lefty, Bully, thank you very much for all your help. It has helped alot . I miss the boat on a Pioneer 1250 list night at the last second. But this is not what this qustion is about. The day before the end of the sale, i emailed the guy with a qustion. He replyed that if i use an high end antenna as seen in October issue of Stereophile magazines that i may never have a problem. I emailed he back two times and no answer. I'm stoping there. I went on Stereophile web sit
can can't find it. And i can't find the magazines at the stores here
in the desert. Do you know what he is talking about? I'm willing to spend more if it works. If not i'm go to Radio Shack. Tell me what is on the market that's very good (please).
Thank You.
 
Antenna, absolutely the key

Don't know the Stereophile article, or item reviewed, but for the BEST antennas, look here: http://www.antennaperformance.com/

But, not to worry, 'cause RS has some very good antennas.
Your first attentions should be your antenna situation. Is what you have in good condition? What about the cabling? In your location, the antenna system is vital to getting the signal to the receiver/tuner.
I'm not to keen on signal gain amps, they amplify everything, noise and the yeech not just the signal. BUT, when in need ...

See, guys, there are advantages to living on the Great Plains!

pete
 
reply

Thank for the good feedback and info. ProAc_Fan and bully.
Bully thanks for the insight on signal gan amps. A sale person could have easily sold me one. I'm glad there is a web site and people like you folks to help a person like me that dosen't have a clue to stereo's and antenna's.
Thank You
 
reply to bully or anybody

Bully or anybody do you know many gangs and I F filters a Kenwood 9400 has? Is there a Kenwood web sit like there is for
Pioneer? Thank You.
 
I am not familiar with relay stations etc. However I queried the large Southern Ontario DXer club on FM reception. I have a fairly good FM tuner..vintage Pioneer TX9800, probably one of the best FM antennas APS 13, have experimented with Magnum Dynalab sleuths etc. only to learn that direct line of sight, elevation, weather, trees with wet leaves as obstacles and believe it or not soil conditions affect reception more.

I am reproducing correspondence sent to me that started my experimention and reading.

I have other correspondence from the club but this individual is somewhat entertaining. You will learn that considerable internet DX info is quite simply volume...quality and occationally credibility questionable.

Dennis



Hi Dennis,Did you get any specs that show losses on distance for THAT particular brand of cable?(Provost will be higher losses than something like a Belden, all otherthings being equal). Are the connections crimp or solder (best) or some sortof twist-on (they tend to be the cheapest, and seem to degrade thequickest)? What's the shield look like (foil with a ground wire, or thebetter 95% copper braid?)? Bright nickel color (lowest commercial grade),or gold (better) or silver-plate (best but harder to find for odd-ball sizedcable)? How is it secured to the mast (stand-off's? or cable ties?)? Beforewe change cable, its nice to know more about what we have in place rightnow.Wish we had some quantitative numbers on before and after results on youtarget stations, cause it sounds like you made some significantimprovements. If you have to adjust your receiver for each individual song,that's actually a good sign that the dynamic range may have been improved.Even the non-calibrated S-meter reading off the set (if you have an S-meter)gives some sort of comparative start. Did you get the expected improvementon bandwidth, as well as signal strength? (Do the high's sound richer,especially with solo runs, with more overtones, and can you make out moredetail in the bass riffs? You should hear more non-music stuff, too, likevalve clatter, reed buzz, or callused fingers sliding over the strings tothe next note. It may not be "music" but it is a good indicator of betterbandwidth and overall clarity). Do you have to turn the volume down,relative to where it was before (is the Pioneer "loafing" now, so you havemore dynamic headroom?)? It would be interesting if you could tape anidentical piece off the air, and compare before-and after tapes from the oldantenna set-up and the new set-up. I know that's tough, but it might showsome differences worth the investment made.Weather on the deep-fringe area of FM is a bit of black magic --- weatheraffects so many things, including transmitter-coupling, multi-path ghosting,and receiver-station-related quirks. Some areas (like Brantford) are highground-mineral-content, and we get FM transmission anomalies that show up asmuch as 48 hours AFTER it started raining (and if the ground is frozen, thatmay affect that 48 hour delayed-timing, too).With some of the long-haul FM wireless transmissions used on the 401 cameras(Eyes on Toronto), you can see the pic develop grainy "noise" in lightdrizzle, although "dry" light snow doesn't seem to affect it. Has somethingto do with ionization of the air, I suspect.How high is your receiver antenna? Do you have a clear path line-of-sighttoward the target broadcasters, or are there trees in the way? (When weinstall critical distance systems, we get up there with the binoculars,cause a wet forest of trees, just below the horizon line but within 10miles, seems to affect FM in some of our applications). Are you up on ahill, or in a plain (where the ground water might collect)?Hope you are keeping notes, cause this could be interesting to review overthe yearsGood luck with it,Bob StewartHi gang,I notice that we all seem to be mixing up "FM fidelity and bandwidth" asopposed to "better DX reception", and I'm not sure that these are really thesame thing. Sometimes the two end up coinciding, but if the intent is tooptimize the music quality, then DX equipment (like monster DX FM antennas) maynot necessarily be the best way to spend the money. (No, I'm not a heretic!Lemme explain what I mean...)First, by way of credentials, along with a couple of boat anchors used for DXwork, I also have one audio system optimized for stereo & CD playback (OK, Iuse it when the DX stinks), and a completely different system optimized formovie surround sound. (And if you think that's eccentric, read on!). Thesurround sound unit has 5 separate internal power supplies, and monster 17-inchspeakers fed with wiring the size of my small pinkie, to get that low-endburble. Its fantastic. (And costs more than several of my boat anchorscombined, to my pocket book's sorrow). But it ain't what I'd callhigh-bandwidth super-clarity for music. The system optimized for Stereo (bestbandwidth) has tower speakers, "only" dual power supplies, a separatecomponent-fed sub-woofer with adjustable cross-overs, and extra care taken onALL the oversized silver-plated (don't use gold) connectors and monster cables. (I live in terror that some day my wife finds the bills)If our intent is to go hunting DX mouse-squeaks, then we really aren't THATinterested in 5 x 5 signals, or optimizing high fidelity. (Nice if we can getit, but an ID comes first, right?). If it’s FM from Europe, who cares if thesignal flutters and fades, right? However, if we already can receive a station"reasonably", but we want to make better recordings off-the-air from the musicthat we hear, and if we are interested in capturing better bass or treblesignals (that is, improving the bandwidth), then a really strong DX antennamight just overload the front end of our fancy Pioneer receiver, and end upproducing a lot of buzz, and also being counter-productive, in terms of betterfidelity and bandwidth, to boot. (Get yer fancy attenuator with every purchaseof a monster antenna!).And if we are looking for better surround-sound, for things like TV concertstaken off-air (Channel 17) then this introduces another set of parameters,again.Anyway, here's the crux of the proposed solutions for better FM bandwidth:Don't use mixed-bag antennas --- TV plus FM just gives you lower dB on both theTV and the FM channels (look up the manufacturer's specs). You gain about 8 to12 dB (typically) by going to a separate FM deep fringe antenna. This is reallyan MATV (Master Antenna TV) approach, like what they do on an apartmentbuilding. Typical sources of equipment include Channel Master, Channel Plus,and Delhi antenna. Try and separate the antennas by at least 6 feet on the mastfor best results.Have a look at the antenna feed-line. For best FM bandwidth (assuming youhaven't any RFI/EMI noise related problems), you are better off with standardTV twin-lead ribbon cable using stand-offs and regular twists, no over-allshield, as opposed to using TV coax. Coax limits the available bandwidth(especially on those high end frequencies, if you are young enough to stillhear that --- the inner ear calcifies with age, and us gray-beards aren'tsupposed to hear high-end overtones as well). Different frequencies arepropagated down the coax at different speeds, and this causes audio signalbleed-over, too. Do the feed line right, and you "save" about 4 to 8 dB inlosses as opposed to the alternative (coax) feed line. Big plus for bandwidth,too, which is a different thing than pure dB stats.That Pioneer is probably fine. Don't fix what ain't broke. Use thetuner-cleaner sparingly, if it is one of the oldturn-the-knob-contacts-for-functions sets, and resist the impulse to take itall apart and resolder the joints (like my eccentric Uncle Bruce did). If yourset will allow an out-board tuner, then haunt the local Cash Converters, andkeep an eye out for a really great separate-component stereo receiver (I'veseen some beauties that usually sell around $100, that were worth 6 times thatprice when new). Usually they will let you hook their used stuff up for anin-shop audition. By the way, I carry around an extra set of good earphones inthe car, to audition this sort of thing --- that way their fancy speakers don'tbecome part of the equation.Spend your budget on separate FM antennas, better transmission lines, andbetter speakers. Take your Pioneer into a local sound shop (that is, one thatcan tune in to a distant station that you are familiar with), and auditionbetter speakers fed by YOUR set. I did this, and it saved me big-time on a newmega-bucks stereo. Some stereo nuts that I know suggest that a 10-year-oldPioneer has better bandwidth than some of the new models, that aren't as"mellow". And some of the ultra-nuts won't listen to anything except their oldtube Marantz sets. I had one of these Marantz nuts come to see me at a previousemployer, and he "auditioned" sets of tubes, until he found two that he liked.I play classical stuff (gone rusty now), and do a lot of listening to classics,but I couldn't hear the difference. $250 a tube, for the gold-label stuff. Gofigure.If you ARE trying to tape high-fidelity high-bandwidth off-air, then you maywant to investigate component-out or tape-deck-out signal levels from yourstereo (if you haven't done it before). If you are a bandwidth freak, then youmay have to use a computer to process the sound, and once it is compressed,dump it onto a CD burner. Kinda complicated, but the results that I've seen have been pure spectacular, and the closest I've seen to being piano side.And last, please remember me in your will. My uncle Bruce was a PhD inEngineering, taught me anything I'll ever know on RFI/EMI, and high-fidelity(he resisted CD players for 10 years, and insisted that records over his oldMarantz gave a "warmer" tone), and when he passed away unexpectedly, hisamazing $35k US, reference-quality stereo system was sold through the paper byhis doodlebug son for 10 cents on the dollar. I still weep to think about it.Kinda long winded, but I hope this helps,Bob StewartSemi-Demi-Audio-Dingbat
 
Re: Antenna, absolutely the key

Originally posted by bully
...

See, guys, there are advantages to living on the Great Plains!

pete

True... but a winter view after some rain in my city is beautiful (those big mountaind there are the Andes)

santiago2.jpg


Chris
 
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