GE VR-1000 Giving Me Fits!!

[mikey5967]

Trying to connect a GE VR-1000 to the Garrard Type A headshell (actually, tried TWo headshells).

I've wired it conventally, and all kinds of different ways, but I just cannot get the stereo correct. There is no stereo separation and one channel is louder than the other. But when I remove the VR-1000 and install a Shure M7, BANG, the separation is perfect.

Was just wondering if any of you have VR-1000s in a Garrard and was there any trick to it?

Thanks,
Mike

 

[johnjhazel]

This ended well. The problem was with a defective stylus. I am a huge fan of the GE VR 1000 cartridge. I have the largest supply of styli for it in the world AFAIK. I want to use one of my VR 1000's with one of my Garrard Lab 80's. I think the medium mass tonearm will mate well. Plus, the stylus assembly for the VR 1000 is quite rugged. Any little mishap will not hurt it. I picked up a Lab 80 Sunday with a Shure M3D installed in the headshell. The seller stated it was a new stylus. Of course, it was bent. I will resell that cartridge with a brand new JICO stylus.

 

[mikey5967]

Yes, the issue was that the few styli I had bought were all defective. The cart is working well now in my 1960 Garrard Type A turntable.

 

[johnjhazel]

The styli are defective in most cases as Peter Pritchard's design was changed by Roy Dally to include adhesive behind and contacting the rear damper. This reduces compliance greatly.

 

[johnjhazel]

You found out who ruined it, eh?

Yep. It took me six months but that beats the 58 years that passed and no one else figured it out. Maybe it would have been a popular cartridge if not for all of the styli problems caused by Roy Dally. I found the problem. Saw Peter's patent and saw no adhesive. Another forum member found the patent for the stylus assembly where Roy Dally specified adhesive behind the rear damper which of course binds to the rear damper and the armature is enveloped in the adhesive. Unbelievable. Any idiot would know better.

 

[johnjhazel]

Maybe you can get someone to build according to Peter’s original patent!

I am currently able to fix them using surgical tools and 25X geek glasses to remove the adhesive. It is time consuming as the adhesive is not hard. It is like bubble gum stuck to your sole on a Phoenix summer day. LOL. I am looking into new production without the adhesive of course. Minimum 1000 pieces and about $4K just to make the molds. No wonder I want to puke. I have about 75 that I will attempt to repair. Once again, I have the world's largest stash. Not Ed. He only has about 15 left.

 

[johnjhazel]

Is removing the funk alone improving their performance? Or are you doing something else, too?

Removing the adhesive makes a huge difference in performance. For example, a stock stylus can only track level 1 of the bass drum on the Shure Audio Obstacle Course Era III. After removing the adhesive, the same stylus will track level 4. One I built for myself tracks level 5. But it takes the parts from two stock styli to make the stylus that will track level 5.

 

[g..v]

I have a couple of VR II that I'll use some day. Even one on an early Garrard head , not really sure which one, but it's early.

 

[johnjhazel]

Pictures: https://www.pickupnaalden.com/engli...il.asp?M=General-Electric_VR-1000-7__2492_464
Tonar has no more. I bought the last from Pickupnaalden and VIParts.
You can see that the rear of the armature is in the amber colored adhesive. Some other brands use white adhesive.

I wanted to put the tests together in one post:

Testing Tonar 128-DS. Swiss made. Identical to EV2743D that were Swiss made. Some EV2743D's were made here in the States. I have never had one of those made in the States AFAIK. There may have been some repackaged as EVG2751DE. The "E" is suspect.

Unmodified stylus tracking at 3 grams VTF:
George Michael "Hard Day" track from the Faith album(12" 33.3 rpm):
Tonearm skates across record at first bass note.
Shure Audio Obstacle Course Era III highest 'pass level':
Bells: Level 3
Sibilance: Level 2
Bass drum: Level 1
Violins: Level 5

Removed the adhesive from behind the rear damper and retested:

Modified stylus tracking at 3 grams VTF:
George Michael "Hard Day" track from the Faith album(12" 33.3 rpm):
Mistracks on bass notes.
Shure Audio Obstacle Course Era III highest 'pass level':
Bells: Level 5
Sibilance: Level 2
Bass drum: Level 4
Violins: Level 5

Bass drum test @ 2.0 grams: Level 4
Bass drum test @ 1.5 grams: Level 3


Test results for my homemade stylus for VR 1000. It uses stock parts with just one variation from Peter E Pritchard's recipe:

Modified stylus tracking at 2 grams VTF:
George Michael "Hard Day" track from the Faith album(12" 33.3 rpm):
No mistrack.
Shure Audio Obstacle Course Era III highest 'pass level':
Bells: Level 5
Sibilance: Level 4
Bass drum: Level 5
Violins: Level 5

 

[g..v]

So, thanks for the picture, what's the difference aside from stylus mounting and the VR ll?

 

[johnjhazel]

So, thanks for the picture, what's the difference aside from stylus mounting and the VR ll?

The VR 1000 is the last and best GE VR STEREO cartridge. The VR II is a mono cartridge that tracks heavy. Did I answer your question ?

 

[orthophonic]

I remember reading something about the adhesive addition back in 1964 or 1965 or so in one of the Audio mags, it was really used for dampening after complaints of a resonance peak at a certain frequency and very loud needle talk,
don't remember much else.

 

[johnjhazel]

I remember reading something about the adhesive addition back in 1964 or 1965 or so in one of the Audio mags, it was really used for dampening after complaints of a resonance peak at a certain frequency and very loud needle talk,
don't remember much else.

Here is the original patent by Peter Pritchard:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/ae/06/ec/2025d36eb806e9/US3062925.pdf

Here is the patent change by Roy Dally that ruined the styli:
https://patentimages.storage.googleapis.com/a1/5b/d4/7235504261f7ec/US3220738.pdf

There is no mention in Roy Dallys' change of reducing needle talk or reducing a resonant peak. Common sense would dictate that decreasing compliance by adding adhesive would increase needle talk, increase the peak, and lower 'trackabiity' to zero in most cases. I guess the Audio Magazine was getting their info elsewhere. If you have time to read Dally's patent you will see that the addition of the adhesive was to make up for manufacturing slop. Roy Dally ruined the GE VR 1000.

 

[johnjhazel]

You can see the adhesive in this picture in a 1965 Allied catalog. The catalog probably came out in summer or fall of 1964. Patents are not always filed/recorded promptly.
http://www.alliedcatalogs.com/html/1965-240b/hr168.html

 

[g..v]

John, yes you did. Never realized ge made stereo cartridges .We used ge vrll in radio school, which certainly not stereo, and never heard much about them in the early 60s, as Pickering,Shure, adc and empire were the usual fare

 

[johnjhazel]

John, yes you did. Never realized ge made stereo cartridges .We used ge vrll in radio school, which certainly not stereo, and never heard much about them in the early 60s, as Pickering,Shure, adc and empire were the usual fare

GE's first stereo cartridge was the Golden Classic. Next was the VR-22 which was the same as the Golden Classic except for additional hum shielding. I have both cartridges and they sound like the EV 26D ceramic to me. In other words, like crap. The GE VR 1000 has many of the qualities of a London. And then some. Incredible channel separation, transient response, dynamics, realism. One advantage the VR 1000 has over a London(Decca) is replaceable styli. For now. The London has the advantage of decades of improvement and product support. Plus a selection of stylus profiles. The VR 1000 could have been a 'poor man's London Decca' if Dally had not ruined it.

 

[johnjhazel]

I am currently able to fix them using surgical tools and 25X geek glasses to remove the adhesive. It is time consuming as the adhesive is not hard. It is like bubble gum stuck to your sole on a Phoenix summer day. LOL. I am looking into new production without the adhesive of course. Minimum 1000 pieces and about $4K just to make the molds. No wonder I want to puke. I have about 75 that I will attempt to repair. Once again, I have the world's largest stash. Not Ed. He only has about 15 left.

It would be a cost of $20K for the molds and 1,200 styli. Forget it. Or as a friend of mine says 'Forget that noise'. Not worth it. Nor do I have $20K lying around. Even if I did, it is too risky for that price. I will just fix what I have and sell those.

 

[johnjhazel]

The styli that I have reverted back to the original design sound incredible. I have never heard a London or A/T ART 1000 but a VR 1000 with one of my reverted styli maybe comes close. Now I know what Julian Hirsch meant by 'unusually sparkling and clean' when he reviewed the VR 1000-5. I wish more people had VR 1000's and could hear what I am hearing. Dally's unfortunate modification to the stylus assembly occured in July 1962. The VR 1000 was not featured in the Allied Radio catalog until 1965. I can just imagine someone buying a VR 1000, installing it, setting the tracking force, etc, lowering the tonearm onto the record in anticipation to watch the tonearm skate across the record. Or at best, mistracking, skipping, distortion. I would imagine word traveled quickly.

 

[malden]

Yes, the issue was that the few styli I had bought were all defective. The cart is working well now in my 1960 Garrard Type A turntable.

Where did you buy those defective needles from?

 

[johnjhazel]

They are almost all defective no matter where you buy them from. Peter E Pritchard designed the GE VR 1000 and stylus assembly for it. Then Peter quit GE and founded ADC. He later sold ADC to BSR and founded Sonus. Roy Dally, another GE employee changed the stylus patent by adding adhesive material behind the rear dampers to compensate for manufacturing 'slop'. Dally's change rendered most of the styli useless.