Good Question: What do you consider to be high end vintage gear?

[4-2-7]

Lots of great feedback! Thanks!

So here is the list now.

Anything McIntosh
Earlier Fisher
ESS Speakers
Ohm Speakers
Top of the line name brands
Celestion Ditton 66
Wharfedale
Fairchild
Western Electric
RCA LC-1A
Thorens TD-124
Garrard 301 and 401
KLH Model Nine Electrostatics
Neumann
Telefunken
Empire
Scott
Fisher XP-18
Bozak
Harman Kardon Citation
Dynaco ? (I'm not sure about this one)
Great American Sound (G.A.S.)
Luxman separates
Denon TTs, carts
Dahlquist DQ-10
DCM Time Window
Early Magneplanar
Harbeth
Vandersteen
Klipsch legacy models
Altec-Lansing Model 19, 14, ?
Audire
Apt-Holman
Precision Fidelity
Kef 105, 104/2, 107, Concerto
Big JBLs
most early 'stats
Sherwood
Leak
Goodman
Tannoy
Klangfilm
Dual
SME
Audio Research,
Conrad-Johnson,
Krell, Pass,
higher end Parasound,
Cary,
Mark Levinson,
VTL
Ayre,
Meridian,
Wadia,
CAL
Wilson,
EgglestonWorks,
Von Schweikert,
Sonus Faber,
Dunlavy,
B&W,
Revel,
Thiel,
JM Labs,
Vandersteen,
Dynaudio
Quad ESLs
Luxman MB-3045/A3000 tube amps

I'm starting to think that any manufacturers TOTL or Statement Model is naturally included in this list.

I like seeing a list like this. I missed out on a pair of Meridians for an extra $200 on a lot purchase because I didn't know what they were.

I appreciate the explanation. However, as the forum is specific to higher end components it should be understood that any reference to manufacturers and their gear should be only to their high performance or highly regarded versions, not their general mass-produced compromised offerings. So, if you were talking Chrysler, you might be referring to, say, a Viper or Challenger Hellcat but not a K-car or Neon.

Ok I'm even more confused now, my post the first one you quoted was refering to post like the above, so I mention Denon briefly as an example why we shouldn't generalize by brand name, so I'm generalizing now.
Ok:thmbsp:

I did think the intent of the thread was to be able to distinguish what is high end within a brand and not to be to vauge reyling on name alone and leaving it up to the reader to know the difference in model numbers. Personaly I don't know what is TOTL and high end in all manufacturers line-ups and a guidline would be a useful tool.:yes:

 

[4-2-7]

I would include Nestorovic Labs in the vintage high end category. Nestorovic worked for Mcintosh, Carver, Speakerlab and then formed Nestorovic Labs. His speakers were a refined, no cost spared boutique versions of the ones he designed at Speakerlab. System 12 or system 16 were his top speakers. He also designed a tube amp that according to smarter people than I thought was exceptional.... If you ever get the chance to listen to any of his stuff.... Do it....

See now this post is great and useful to me as a learning tool.:thmbsp:

I never heard of Nestorovic but now I have some history, model # and have enough in this post to research further if needed.

To bad it came from a Chevy 427...

 

[sc427]

See now this post is great and useful to me as a learning tool.:thmbsp:

I never heard of Nestorovic but now I have some history, model # and have enough in this post to research further if needed.

To bad it came from a Chevy 427...

You're welcome...... and my handle is my initials and also is a nod to my favorite car the SC427 Cobra........ FE Ford power although I have no problem with a big block Chevy

 

[ehoove]

Anything Mcintosh is painting with a broad brush, as their vintage SS amps and Preamps while very good, are not in the Vintage high end catagory to me. Their tube gear of course. Same could be said for the early Marantz SS separates IMHO (I have owned both)
Regards,
Jim

 

[4-2-7]

You're welcome...... and my handle is my initials and also is a nod to my favorite car the SC427 Cobra........ FE Ford power although I have no problem with a big block Chevy

Ya a Ford lover:thmbsp:

 

[Tinkerbelle]

In my proposed vision there would be a forum for the discussion of High End Vintage, value and performance or system building or champagne color or matching or whatever as long as it was High End gear being discussed. I would not limit it to the Classic High End, gear that has been singled out to be high end by some audio rag but by gear that is known to be high end by the majority of folks and is discussed as such. If an integrated amp is a statement piece, 5L15 for example, it would be more than welcome. An Onkyo Integra A-8015, not so much. Yes, the 5L15 has a preamp, 5C50 and power amps, 5M20 or 5M21 that would provide a bit more but that more is flexibility and power not necessarily sonic improvement.

So no, don't eliminate integrated amps but for sure don't open the flood gates.

I think with forum tweaking as is being done the High End-Vintage forum would be a nice place to discuss. Cutting Edge, as I've said before reminds me of cutting room floor and we all know that a) has nothing to do with audio and b) is something that did not make the cut.

Forum name should NOT make it difficult for users to decide where to post.

So I think we are on the same page.

Agreed, the name should NOT make it difficult and the feedback is appreciated - but neither should that mean the members ignore the description and rules. I will give it a run up the flagpole with the powers.

 

[Negotiableterms]

Mostly in response to Blue Shadow, ehoove and Tinkerbelle, here's an overview.

No one has ever succeeded in defining 'high-end' anything. When someone outside audio asks me what 'high-end' means, I usually answer that it's gear designed to sound good, more faithful to the real thing, and not to just have big specs for mass marketing, and not constrained in price to meet mass-market demands.

Then I have to explain that no one agrees on just what that means, but back in the day, many mfrs competed to advertise the most wpc, or lowest THD, only to discover that some 'lesser' spec units actually sounded better. Then I have to explain that over time, the term 'high end' has been popularized to include high price/exclusive/rarity/exotic, etc., but that these qualities really aren't part of what we're trying to focus on, and lead to controversy, which we'd like to miss.

So, we called it 'performance', to focus on the SQ, and stay away from the other aspects of 'high end'.

In audio, looking for examples, one easy place to start is 'classic' gear, like a Marantz 10B, which was widely acclaimed in its day, and has retained its value over the very long haul. There's another thread here for nominations to the 'classic' category, model by model. That said, this forum isn't limited to 'classics'.

This forum is also not intended to be broad enough for whole manufacturers' lines from every year to be included. Even the very best mfrs sometimes come out with a dud. We'd also like to exclude 'flash in the pan' units, which come out to great fanfare, only to vanish quickly from the market when everyone discovers they actually don't sound good, or are unstable, or badly made. Note, I'm not naming names, because those units are NOT supposed to be discussed in here. This forum is about the positive aspects of great gear, not a complaint box for all of the flaws in the high end audio market, of which we freely admit there are plenty.

If you're thinking that I haven't really answered the question... you're right. There isn't a simple answer, because it's not a simple subject. Like Potter Stewart on pornography, we can't define 'performance' or 'high end', but we know it when we hear it. The forum names are flexible, but we'd like to stay away from the controversial 'high end' and focus on 'performance'.

 

[Tinkerbelle]

So you are saying that the name was just worded in the wrong order to make it clean without reading a sticky or a by line since the Jump Thread feature does not have either of these in it?

Performance Vintage Gear, all the same words, you have an extra dash to spend as you will or High Performance Vintage Gear, clearer to some.

Not really; high performance is not necessarily high fidelity or high end. It might be something that can play loud and weld battleships.

 

[BobbyBluz]

No mention of EV here. Some of their offerings are true classics. Patrician 800's were a major statement back in their day. Sentry III's listed for more than a pair of Altec 19's. The Sentry 100A's are still in use in broadcast studios (we have a few pairs at the radio station).

 

[ehoove]

And so it goes! Do we need a real definition or just weed thru the posts? I really don't have a definitive answer, but we hve certainly made strides to get there.
Great discussion,
Jim

 

[Tinkerbelle]

so no High Performance, no High End, might as well be just vintage then and we have that.

I know you guys are trying but you are putting way, way too much thought into each and every letter on the page. This seems to be leading to some odd forum titles. I can't understand Vintage Gear-Performance...without thinking up numerous reasons why a post in that titled forum would wouldn't be about the performance of vintage gear whether it be a Lloyds or a BOTL receiver from any of the major marketers. This leads to some to post in this forum when the thread should be elsewhere.

High End and High Performance...and we get stuck on semantics and leave a misleading title to the forum. Are there really that many that are going to throw a welder in this conversation pit...Sure there are, the Crown DC-300a was the beginning of the high powered gear and one of the amps that started it all. Your fear has been realized. And then we are not able to decide for ourselves whether a unit is high end or high performance and for inclusion we must define the term...what is this English Class?

All we want is a place to talk about the stuff that was better, more expensive, sounded nicer to someone, drove speakers louder or whatever it might have done to give folks the impression that they couldn't afford it, couldn't use its capabilities or were not allowed to buy it. Just the crap that was in the sound room at the store. Stuff that was a few steps up. No definition needed. No English lessons. Just open discussion of the gear.

Hmm, you have a place to talk about the stuff that was better, more expensive etc. This is it. Why not discuss that instead of discussing Titles? I do not understand this continuation about a Title. It is all about the gear

 

[Negotiableterms]

...and we get stuck on semantics and leave a misleading title to the forum... what is this English Class?

All we want is a place to talk about the stuff that was better, more expensive, sounded nicer to someone, drove speakers louder or whatever it might have done to give folks the impression that they couldn't afford it, couldn't use its capabilities or were not allowed to buy it. Just the crap that was in the sound room at the store. Stuff that was a few steps up. No definition needed. No English lessons. Just open discussion of the gear.

This forum is exactly what you're describing. Discussion of that kind of gear is open here, regardless of the name of the forum.

You apparently want the word 'high' to be in the name; we don't. Among other reasons, we don't want the phrase 'High Performance" because of the now-long gone audio magazine 'High Performance Review" (which I miss, BTW, even though it didn't last long).

If we have to move a few threads that wind up in here by mistake, we'll be fine with that. We move threads every day all over the place. If there are too many we'll consider doing something, but calling any forum here 'high end' or 'high performance' would likely be a last resort.

 

[Mark B]

Yamaha Limited Centennial Edition with links to photos and specs on Axel Dahl's excellent website The Vintage Knob:

MX-10000 amplifier
CX-10000 control amplifier
CDX-10000 CD player
HX-10000 phono stage
NSX-10000 speakers

 

[Gang-Twanger]

No mention of EV here. Some of their offerings are true classics. Patrician 800's were a major statement back in their day. Sentry III's listed for more than a pair of Altec 19's. The Sentry 100A's are still in use in broadcast studios (we have a few pairs at the radio station).

Pretty sure I saw EV mentioned...... By you!

No, all seriousing aside, I'm pretty sure it was mentioned before... I used to think "high-end" just meant "better than yours".

I'm trying to remember the name of the guy who first coined the term "high fidelity"... John Cusack? ... Nah... Wait, he was the founder of a company that made radios back in pre-WWII days... Damn, who was it? ... Oh wait, H.A. Hartley (Harman Kardon and Peavey were coming to mind, but I couldn't figure out why). He coined "high fidelity" all the way back in the late '20's, for pete's sake!

There are so many factors involved in getting great sound, you can't even pin it down to price OR the degree of build-quality. Take Leak for example. Their gear had the best point-to-point construction I think I have ever seen, and yet how many AK'ers have complained about their preamps in the time I've been here?

One thing's for sure, I am never selling this ABKCO DSD "Let It Bleed" LP that I've had since like 2007. Sounds deliciously-good on my old stacker turntable with a cheap vintage cart. I think this LP is high-end (but it doesn't discriminate).

Damn, this is good... I have to put this record away for months at a time, otherwise I just keep playing it... It's like a drug.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Hello, OP here.

This is getting a little off track.

The initial question is, what do you consider VINTAGE HIGH END?

I think this needs to be kept in focus. My interests are with 70s and 80s gear. I
I love the way it looks and sounds. And I believe a lot of others are also very interested to hear what is considered vintage high end by the majority.

I'll get back to the list. This is a long weekend in Canada, with beautiful weather, so AK must be kept in the background for now.

 

[Negotiableterms]

Vintage high end from the 70s and 80s (OK, very late 80s)?

Threshold T2 preamp
Threshold SA-4e amp
Threshold S-550e amp
Infinity IRS Beta

Still have them all.

 

[BilboBaggins]

Thanks for the input, negotiableterms! The BBQ is over and now I am relaxing after sharing my passion with some high school friends that came over. And joy of joys, two of my old friends loved hearing the gear I have.

To put it all in context, I have spent the last 3 years building up my systems. I have a casual listening system made up of a McIntosh MC2205, a C26, an MR76, a Sony PS-X55, a pioneer 6 CD player, a JVC auto reverse tape deck, and a pair of 1968 Kef Concerto's.

In my reference system, I have 2 Bose 1801 power amps, a Bose 4401 Preamp, a Thorens TD-160, a Yamaha PX-3, a Denon CD player, and a pair of Kef 105 and a pair of JBL L-46s. I'm also streaming my music from my NAS to iTunes, to 4 airport expresses on each setup I have in the house. I know it isn't all high end, but I am slowly working on the weak links.

 

[TubeHiFiNut]

The original Martin-Logan CLS.
Rogers LS3/5a
Apogee
ET LFT speakers
The early Quicksilver amps including the M135.
Marantz tube separates
Altec Barcelona
ESS Eclipse power amp
Paragon Tube preamp
Luxman CL-35 III preamp

Plus the Quad ESL-57.

 

[tubed]

1967 Rectilinear III
Quad 57 meets its match.

http://sportsbil.com/stereo/rectilinear-db/highboy-review-hirsch-12-1967.pdf

 

[BilboBaggins]

I’m changing this around a little. I’ve decided to leave out turntables because there are a few good threads on them already. If you disagree with any items I list, I would be interested in knowing why. I am also being very specific. Only brand and model numbers will go on the list.

I am tightening the thread to High End Vintage Amplifiers, Preamps, and Speakers. Please supply the model and year of manufacture when you list something. This will make it easier for me to tabulate, which is a lot of work.

I am currently at post #72. I will update this number as I go.

If you mentioned something in a post before this number, I may not have added it because I didn’t have a model number or didn’t realize it doesn’t need one.


Preamps

Bose 4401
Kenwood Supreme 700C
Luxman CL-35 III preamp
McIntosh C26
McIntosh C28
McIntosh C32
Yamaha C-1

Power Amps

Bose 1801
ESS Eclipse power amp
Great American Sound (G.A.S.) Ampzilla
Great American Sound (G.A.S.) Son of Ampzilla
Harman Kardon Citation
JVC JM-S7
Kenwood Supreme 700M
Kenwood L-09M
Kenwood L-07M
Luxman MB-3045 tube amp
Luxman A3000 tube amp
McIntosh MC2105,
McIntosh MC2300,
Onkyo grand integra m-510
Quicksilver M135
Threshold S/500 Stasis
Yamaha produced the B-1


Speakers

Altec Barcelona
Altec-Lansing Model 19
Celestion Ditton 66
Dahlquist DQ-10
Dahlquist DQ-20
Dahlquist DQ-30
ESS AMT 1aM speakers
ET LFT speakers
Fisher XP-18
Infinity IRS Betas
JBL L300's
Kef Concerto
Kef 107
Kef 105
Kef 104/2
KLH Model Nine Electrostatics
Martin-Logan CLS.
Nestorovic Labs System 12
Nestorovic Labs System 16
Quad ESLs
Rogers LS3/5a
Speakerlab 50s
Wharfedale W90
Wharfedale SFB/3
Wharfedale Airedale
Yamaha GF1