How the power supply caps are affecting the sound ?

[Robert2017]

I don't understand exacty how the power supply main caps and the preamp power supply main caps are affecting the amp sound signature ?

I mean different caps have a different sound as shown in this videos post bellow. So it worths spending money on the best sounding caps for the power supply ?

Some will say that power supply caps don't affect the sound signature because "power supply filter caps work to supply smooth -- and silent -- DC" or that "power supply filter caps aren't in the signal path. They're part of a circuit to generate smooth DC to power the rest of the amplifier circuitry and smooth DC doesn't have a sound, because smooth DC doesn't vary the position of the speaker cone."

I'm sure that the power supply caps are affecting the sound signature because I made a lot of mods by changing different caps.

I don't want to start a debate about blind tests vs normal tests or caps have no sound vs caps give a sound signature.

So how the main power supply caps and the preamp power supply caps are affecting the sound signature ?. What is the process ?.
For example here is an article :

http://sw1xad.co.uk/black-gate-vs-kaisei-capacitors-review/
All capacitors were used in the HV power supply section of the 6N6P/6N30P tube output stage.

All judgements expressed are a result based on a head to head comparison two identical DAC circuits before and after the burn in period of many hundred hours.

BG pros:

• Pitch dark background
• Brutal dynamics and radiant energy across the whole frequency spectrum
• Addictive mid- bass quality and quantity

BG cons:

• BG caps are not perfect; they lack clarity in the top midrange end (relative to KAISEI)
• Many hundreds of hours run in time
• Availability and price

KAISEI pros:

• Superb clarity /Transparency/Resolution but retaining warm sound
• Complete lack of haze relative to BG
• Silky smoothness in the midrange a la paper in oil foil (PIO) type caps
• Fluidity in dynamics comparable to solid film capacitors
• Frequency extension associated with non polar version of BG
• Sound nice straight out the box with much less run in time needed

KAISEI cons:

• Not the last word in dynamics and mid bass weight relative to BG WKZ (one of the best sounding power supply caps known to me)
• Similar price relative to the original Black Gate retail price

Also I provid some videos that shows how different caps sound very different

The difference is obvious with the cheapest earphones ... not speaking about hi-end speakers or acoustical special rooms ...

started another thread to become an informative one for those seeking explanations.

I think a technical side explanation is worthless without artistic terms like the "sonic signature" of PSU main capacitors.

After all is about music expression.

So in my opinion the explanation needs to be more on the musical signature side but combined with the technical side.

 

[Robert2017]

Here is an explanation offered by Joe Dawson :

" I will try to be as simple as possible. Definitions. (Let's keep this simple, no phase shifts etc. etc.)

A capacitor will only pass AC current, not DC current.
A capacitor has reactance, AC resistance.
A resistor has both AC and DC resistance.
Signal voltage is in volts rms.
Ground is kept simple. It is the negative part of the power supply, the reference for all AC and DC voltage measurements.

In a typical amplifier, let's say there are 3 separate stages. Reference is always to ground (for simplicity sake) unless specified otherwise. The plate of a tube might have 150 volts DC, referenced to ground when measured. If an AC signal is produced at the plate, say 10 volts rms, that AC signal is referenced to ground. Again, I will use the term "ground" to keep things as simple as possible.

We feed a musical signal voltage into the input stage, and the output of that stage feeds the next stage, eventually the output stage and then the speaker. Each stage output consists of the musical signal, which is AC. If the musical signal was only DC, no musical signal would ever reach the speaker. That is what happens when the volume control is turned completely down, no AC signal is present. If the musical signal were DC, the coupling capacitors would not pass it, the output transformer would also never pass DC to the speaker. A capacitor and output transformer only passes an AC signal, a musical signal eventually to the speaker. A musical signal cannot be DC.

A filter capacitor, C1, as all electrolytic capacitors, are designed to pass AC signal current but not DC. Manufacturers even have a maximum AC signal current rating. To sum up, each audio stage has an AC voltage source, which is the musical signal, and a load of rp + RL + C1 reactance to ground. The load will draw AC musical signal current through C1. I tried to keep things as simple as possible. "

 

[darkblue94]

Put it to rest.

 

[Robert2017]

here is another explanation by I LIKE MUSIC

"
As others have posted, the energy (current) that drives our speakers comes from the power supply. The quality of this current can have a direct impact one the quality of the amplifier output.

The power supply provides the energy that is controlled by the transistors or vacuum tubes, driven by the audio signal. The quality of this energy can have a direct impact on the quality of the sound.

The statement that the power supply is not part of the direct signal path may be true, but the signal that goes to the speakers comes from the power supply, so in the end it is the signal.

This brings us full circle, back to the beginning.

The math and science of power supply design is well known in world of engineering. One of the parameters of power supply design is called load step response. It is something that all power supplies have to one degree or another. The load step response of a power supply is involved in this discussion.

And the functionality of the human auditory system is well known in the world audiology and auditory neuroscience.

It is interesting that in the world of audiology, one of the bench marks for the performance of a hearing aid is how well it works in a non perfect environment. Real worlds test are done with real living people. The tests are purposely done under less than ideal conditions."

 

[Robert2017]

here is another explanation by EV3

petehall347 said: ↑
i missed the end bit .. i understand how it works to make a better smoother supply but dont agree the power supply is in the signal path . as i understand it the signal path needs to stay away from the supply .the supply basically operates the transistors to amplify the voltages .
what i am trying to say is it doesn't route through the power supply .only the circuits the supply supplies .

EV3 said:

Try thinking of it this way...You are listening to the result of the power supply. It's what makes up the sound you hear. The input signal simply gates the power supply to the output.

For convenience sake, schematics are drawn as input, through the stages, to the output. Power supply is simply little arrows pointing into stages where power is needed. Then the ps is drawn off to the side to the point of the various voltages.

This is a serious understatement of what makes up the end result. Hence the British term for tubes, valves. As the "gain" elements are simply acting as a valve controlling the amount of power supply routed to the output.

 

[Robert2017]

here is another explanation by HiFiThor

Actually the power supply caps will have an effect on the final sound output out of the speakers in kind of an indirect way as they are not actually in the signal path. These caps are the current reserve that supply the current the amplification stage needs in order to make the voice coil in the speaker move. It is much like my battery example, if there isn't enough juice in the battery your car won't start. A wimpy power supply won't have the current needed to allow the speakers to produce the required SPL when the demand is there. There are ways around it like using speakers that are very efficient. Early movie theaters used tube amplification usually something less than 30 watts RMS, had relatively small power supplies but they were coupled to speakers like Altec Lansing Voice of the Theater speakers, very efficient and could produce the SPL needed for large audiences. If you want to demonstrate this get a copy of the 1812 Overture and listen to what happens when the cannons go off. A good system with carefully chosen components will produce a concussive pressure on your chest that will make you bleed.

I agree with the videos, they don't really tell much to the viewer. It is true that certain builds of guitar amps produce a different sound such as blues players like Fender Tweed amps and Heavy Metal types like Marshall, Orange. The type and brand of caps used in these amps are the signature sound they produce. If I were to repair an amp like this I would use OEM parts and not change a thing. It does get tough when you can't find out of stock parts and you have to improvise which is discussed with the custormer.

 

[Robert2017]

Put it to rest.

why ?

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

Robert, I have posted information in detail in the other thread. A new thread will not change the science.

Do you agree or disagree with what I have posted?

"Actually the power supply caps will have an effect on the final sound output out of the speakers in kind of an indirect way as they are not actually in the signal path"

I gave a good explanation of why this is not necessarily accurate because they are part of the signal path. Do you understand why?

 

[Robert2017]

Robert, I have posted information in detail in the other thread. A new thread will not change the science.

Do you agree or disagree with what I have posted?

"Actually the power supply caps will have an effect on the final sound output out of the speakers in kind of an indirect way as they are not actually in the signal path"

I gave a good explanation of why this is not necessarily accurate because they are part of the signal path. Do you understand why?

But do you mention that supply main caps are affecting the amp sound signature depending on the PSU caps sound signature ? or just by affecting the sound in a vague way that have nothing to do with PSU caps sound signature ??
You also mentioned :
"the signal that goes to the speakers comes from the power supply, so in the end it is the signal.

This brings us full circle, back to the beginning."

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

Robert, you need to read and understand my posts and not just take certain things out of contest.

Do you not understand any of my posts including those regarding return current? I have gone into great detail.

If so you would not ask this question.

 

[Robert2017]

What I don't understand is why someone called DaveVoorhis repeats all over the forum that PSU main caps have nothing to do with any sound influence or sound signature and that for PSU the cheapest caps will work like the best caps because there will be no sound difference in quality..

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

Robert you are going off track again. Dave posts what he understands as the operation of the circuit. It is his opinion based on how he believes it works (right or wrong), just like your posts.

I tried to help him understand, by posting in detail, how it works.

Robert, you have have not answered my questions.

But do you mention that supply main caps are affecting the amp sound signature depending on the PSU caps sound signature ? or just by affecting the sound in a vague way that have nothing to do with PSU caps sound signature ??

I have explained in detail how a capacitor, filter or bypass can affect the complex waveform that is the audio signal. Did you not read my posts?

Using a general adjective such as "sound signature" to describe the operation of a capacitor is not correct in the context of question you posted "How the power supply caps are affecting the sound?"

The inductance, capacitance, resistance, the characteristics of the dialectic used and the physical construction among other things can change the way current flows into and out of a capacitor. What you unscientifically call "sound signature".

What part do you not understand?

 

[Robert2017]

Robert you are going off track again. Dave posts what he understands as the operation of the circuit. It is his opinion based on how he believes it works (right or wrong), just like your posts.

I tried to help him understand, by posting in detail, how it works.

Robert, you have have not answered my questions.




I have explained in detail how a capacitor, filter or bypass can affect the complex waveform that is the audio signal. Did you not read my posts?

Using a general adjective such as "sound signature" to describe the operation of a capacitor is not correct in the context of question you posted "How the power supply caps are affecting the sound?"

The inductance, capacitance, resistance, the characteristics of the dialectic used and the physical construction among other things can change the way current flows into and out of a capacitor. What you unscientifically call "sound signature".

What part do you not understand?

I;m very tired so I haven't readed all your posts... so you're saying that the PSU caps are in fact part of the signal path because the AC signal goes to the speakers from the power supply. Also a DC or DC bias will affect sound quality so it needs to be pure AC right ?
I don;t think that Dave posts what he understands. I think he's playing with different ideeas and he feels satisfaction when someone believes in what he's preaching . Maybe next year he will use your ideeas by replacing what he uses now.

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

I;m very tired so I haven't readed all your posts... so you're saying that the PSU caps are in fact part of the signal path because the AC signal goes to the speakers from the power supply. Also a DC or DC bias will affect sound quality so it needs to be pure AC right ?
I don;t think that Dave posts what he understands. I think he's playing with different ideeas and he feels satisfaction when someone believes in what he's preaching . Maybe next year he will use your ideeas by replacing what he uses now.

Robert, you are looking for information, but not reading the posts that contain the information. And then you start another thread to ask the same question. How does that work?

 

[Robert2017]

Robert, you are looking for information, but not reading the posts that contain the information. And then you start another thread to ask the same question. How does that work?

I will read your posts tomorow but as you can see others have completely different opinions compared to what you're saying..and not only that but they will completely refuse to agree with your opinions and they try to convince you that you are wrong .

 

[I LIKE MUSIC]

I will read your posts tomorow but as you can see others have completely different opinions compared to what you're saying..and not only that but they will completely refuse to agree with your opinions and they try to convince you that you are wrong .

I have seen people argue about Ohm's law, but that does not change it. 1 volt, 1 Ohm, 1 amp.

What I have posted is based on how things work, not opinions.

Robert, you are not going to get very far posting questions and then admitting that you do not read the posts pertaining to your question.

 

[Robert2017]

Put it to rest.

Yes I'm new to this whole internet thing.
I started this thread to become an informative one for those seeking explanations.

I think a technical side explanation is worthless without artistic terms like the "sonic signature" of PSU main capacitors.

After all is about music expression.

So in my opinion the explanation needs to be more on the musical signature side but combined with the technical side.

 

[c.coyle]

. . . so you're saying that the PSU caps are in fact part of the signal path because the AC signal goes to the speakers from the power supply . . .

I probably shouldn't get involved, because where the elephants fight, the mice get squished.

And this is probably a little off-topic, but I think signal "path" is a misnomer. When a signal enters an amplification stage, it gets shunted to ground and is gone, forever. That creates a small voltage, which is "copied" by a transistor or tube, using electricity [EDIT: DC] from the power supply. Current flows from the power supply to ground, not along a horizontal path. If all is working correctly, an exact copy of that signal is created, and passed on to the next stage, where the process repeats.

Now this is a gross oversimplification by a rank amateur, but I think I have the basic concept correct. The signal that emerges from any stage is not the signal that emerged from the previous stage. It's not a continuous path, but more like a signal chain comprised of loosely coupled loops or links. The path concept is good for reading schematics and trouble shooting, but in my opinion that's about it.

Running for cover . . .

 

[Hyperion]

So in my opinion the explanation needs to be more on the musical signature side but combined with the technical side.

Robert, you have already decided what the answer is - just leave it now, and understand that it is your opinion, and not necessarily agreed with by other members of the forum.

This whole subject (capacitors, effect on sound etc) is extremely controversial, if you persist it is almost certain to end with thread closure.

 

[Robert2017]

Robert, you have already decided what the answer is - just leave it now, and understand that it is your opinion, and not necessarily agreed with by other members of the forum.

This whole subject (capacitors, effect on sound etc) is extremely controversial, if you persist it is almost certain to end with thread closure.

Robert, you have already decided what the answer is - just leave it now, and understand that it is your opinion, and not necessarily agreed with by other members of the forum.

This whole subject (capacitors, effect on sound etc) is extremely controversial, if you persist it is almost certain to end with thread closure.

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. So what's wrong in that .Let's have some fun and persist without any thread closure.