How to tame brightness?

[goraman]

remove the steel screws holding the tweeter in and replace them with solid brass screws.Not brass plated.That should help reduce the brightness.

It's a very effective mod that will help subdue brightness.Brass screws have a higher density than steel,They will dampen the tweeters brightness by reduceing resanance in the mounting ring and stop the secondary build up across the cone or dome,makeing the tweeter faster,cleaner and less bright.

http://www.virtualdynamics.ca/the-oddiophile-eps-1

hope this helps,it costs around $2.00 to try,I can tell you it works.

 

[forzaroma]

I am afraid I am not in a position to cast the first stone when it comes to tweaking ideas .

Speaking of screwing around ... one tweak that involves screws and I know makes a difference is to check and re-tighten all screws on your speakers regularly since the do get loose over time. I recently checked the screws on my REL T2 subwoofer (because it was making a bit of a rattling sound at times) and some of them were 2-3 turns loose. I also find the screws on the Sonus Faber to be a bit loose after a few months. The guy who designed the Magico is not fan of using screws on wood in the first place, and I can see why (he uses bolts on an aluminum baffle).

Alberto

 

[CarlV]

A pair of these helps too. Those 300b tubes are "sweat" Ryan can attest to that.

Those are 845's maybe? :yes:

"out there" (but with lots of good company ... tuning dots anyone?)

You making fun of my dots Alberto? :


Carl

 

[goraman]

also another way to tame a bright tweeter is to use a better capacitor in the crossover.
Clarity caps SA. and black gate caps often make a tweeter sound much fuller and less piercing to the ear.
If the tweeter is not mated well with the cabnet it can sound thin and hard so make shure it has a tight fit.

 

[jaygee]

To my ears brightness usually goes hand in hand with weak bass so my recommendation would be to add a good subwoofer. High frequencies are never over emphasised when bass is plentiful. I couldn't live without a sub.

 

[Victor]

Since this thread has gone into the realm of tweaking it is going to the Thinking Out Loud forum. Keep in mind that negative comments on tweaks you have not tried yourself are not welcome.

 

[merrylander]

Sunglasses?

 

[fasted2015]

Wow, what a response and it was fast! Thanks to all of you for your helpful suggestions.

I don't *think* the room and reflections are problems but I don't know for sure. So here is a more complete description about the room and its acoustics.

The stereo room (a.k.a. living room) is 16'x24', with drywall and a textured ceiling. The floor is totally carpeted with a thick 8'x12' accent rug in the middle. There are two fabric covered sofas and no chairs. The three windows have heavy fabric curtains all the way to the floor. The speakers unfortunately can only be put along the short wall (16') due to an off-center fireplace along the long wall.

The room definitely is not "live" and the sound doesn't echo or reverb as far a I can hear. Standing waves don't appear to be a problem since the bass is very tight and goes way down LOW!! with a low amplitude, brief resonant peak somewhere around 100 hz. Transients are sharp and the bass is very tight and clean.

A clean music source with plucky guitar strings, or better yet strong percussion with deep bass (like the Japanese drum group Kodo -- wow -- and heard them perform here in Columbus, Ohio, just last night) really is a revelation about how realistic the Mac and 803Ds can sound. But a CD with close-miked cymbals or horns has no smoothness, no sweetness, just sound that is strained and a bit shrill.

The speakers are biwired. Using tone controls does help a lot controlling the shrillness but the perfectionist in me would rather prefer to bypass that extra circuitry if possible. The resistor padding idea is interesting, any suggestions about starting resistor values? I'm pretty handy around small tools, soldering irons, and electronics and will keep this in mind for later, as a very last resort. The speakers are on the amp's 8 ohm tap so I'll switch to 4 ohms to see what happens. B&W made a very big point in their technical discussions about how they use special custom-made German capacitors in the crossovers so hopefully that's not an issue.

I'm wondering if the problem might not be so much the speakers but the CD player. A friend brought over the control head of his Bose Lifestyle 28 system and we patched it in thru the AUX inputs of the preamp to compare his CD player to the MCD301. There was a definite, pronounced difference; most, if not all, of the shrillness disappeared. Mid and high frequency transient response stayed sharp and the highest highs approached that sweet sound. Unfortunately, the bass got flabby; the bass was there but the impact was gone.

Do CD players need an extended break-in also?

This audiophile stuff isn't as simple as I thought. The scars are accumulating.....

 

[forzaroma]

But a CD with close-miked cymbals or horns has no smoothness, no sweetness, just sound that is strained and a bit shrill.

I think there's a couple of things at work here.

1) If you listen to a live performance, you might find that some instruments do sound shrill and fatiguing. I find live trumpet, for example, to be hard on my ears.

2) The B&W are quite revealing and not too forgiving (one of the reasons they are used in many recording studios). I auditioned a pair at home and they reproduced the high frequencies with more speed and detail than the Sonus Faber - I still remember vividly how great the horn section on Wagner's "Ride of the ride of the Valkyries" sounded; it was the best reproduction of horns I've ever heard. But I did find the sound fatiguing in the long run. My neighbor audiophile, on the other hand, loved them and bought a pair. Although, I must say, that he does not listen 1/10th as much as I do.

If the purist in you does not want to compromise and use tone controls, perhaps the same purist can come to terms with the fact that some instruments and recordings can sound shrill and that the speakers, who are also not compromising, are just doing their job of reproducing the signal as accurately as possible.

In other words, there is a price to pay for having a very revealing, accurate and non-compromising system. The "Absolute Sound" is not necessarily the most pleasant sound. Some people can handle the audio "truth", I prefer a little audio white lie here and there when the audio truth is hard to take .

Alberto

 

[forzaroma]

I'm wondering if the problem might not be so much the speakers but the CD player. A friend brought over the control head of his Bose Lifestyle 28 system and we patched it in thru the AUX inputs of the preamp to compare his CD player to the MCD301. There was a definite, pronounced difference; most, if not all, of the shrillness disappeared. Mid and high frequency transient response stayed sharp and the highest highs approached that sweet sound. Unfortunately, the bass got flabby; the bass was there but the impact was gone.

Ahem ... there's a saying about Bose "No highs, no lows, it must be Bose." And yet, Bose is arguably the most popular brand in US households. The Bose house sound is the opposite of "The Absolute Sound" IMO, it's designed to make everything sound warm, smooth, and easy to listen to. I have a Bose in my bathroom where, with all the glass and mirrors, a less forgiving system would sound terrible - horses for courses. So I am not surprised that a Bose source smoothed things out, but I'd be surprised if you can find an "audiophile" CDP that will do the same.

I still think that a judicious use of tone controls - when the recording calls for it - is your best solution. That way you have a very realistic system when the recordings warrant it, and a more forgiving one when they don't.

Alberto

 

[jn229]

Patience: Let your speakers break in, also it will give you time to know your new system (which is killer). If a break in is not helping, find your tweeter’s first reflection. In a darken room, hold a flash light beside your head, well seated in your listening chair. Using a small mirror, move the mirror along your wall, and floor, till the beam is redirected and highlighting your tweeter, this will be the point of reflection. A nice carpet will dampen the floor reflection. The wall’s dampening, needs spousal approval, but remember you can deflect sounds waves with some thing like a nice plant. You do not always have to absorb them.Try a case of beer and a bunch of audio buddies. Have your friends stand at your wall's first reflections, and listen, hell if your friends are like mine they’ll need to lean on a wall anyways

 

[dogscanskate]

Here are a few of my findings on brightness issues. Yes, room acoustics are part of it but there are many other sources that cause the problem.

Metal racks I have found to add harshness if they are cheap, loose and wavering (independant of price) make sure when assembling them that the screws are tight and recheck every month.

All components exhibit resonant frequencies and all "are subjected to the changing of air pressure" as you play music. Put your hand on a cdp while music is playing and you realize that that cabinet vibrates. Dissipation of these vibrations done correctly help alleviate harshness/brightness...

There are tweaks like better footers for components such as Black Diamond racing cones, dh labs cones that also can help in combatting brightness.

It's just that setting up the system correctly is a long and tedious project. Many times, it's a trial and error process. Overdoing the acoustical treatment of a room by inserting many sound panels of the same size may do more harm than good. Eventually, it kills the music when overdone. In my case, by inserting better shelves such as "symposium", metal bearings, better spikes/feet, I have gotten rid of sound panels as the problem was sourced to component (cabinets, grilles) oscillating and I found devices that help the component dissipate these vibrations quickly. In my case, I got rid of most metal racks I had, I found them to be the biggest source of harshness. Even adding lead shot to the racks, I found that they dissipate vibrations in all directions, meaning that they feed back into your components. We haven't yet found directional dissipation components. Twacking a metal rack (with/without lead shot) sounds awful and it feeds back into your gear.

If your equipment has tubes, rolling tubes or acquiring a different brand can also help. In my case I found that setting up a system is more critical than just applying sound panels. Once the set-up is correct, sound panels can be a tremendous help.

I also keep my gear as far away from the speakers as possible, never will I install a rack between 2 speakers. Just do a sound meter check in between 2 speakers and you realize that components have additional db's to dissipate.

 

[RickB]

Don't turn off the digital player. Theta used to recommend that you allow 48 hours after turning on a piece of digital gear before you did any critical listening. SACD players seem to take quite a while to break in....

Cardas cabling, depending on the series can be golden hued to neutral, no harshness at all, you've got some nice equipment, quit cheapening out on cable. Forget your old paradigm that wire is wire, you have a highly resolving system, not some 1970's Pioneer receiver with Kabuki speakers, YOU ARE GOING TO HEAR DIFFERENCES IN CABLING. Try something besides XLO, MIT, Wireworld, or Ixos....FWIW, I agree on the Equinox 5...but, cables need to be installed and left alone for a while (IOW, don't move them or plug and unplug them)...cables also need time to settle, or break in....

Power conditioning

No glass shelving

.

 

[Markw]

I know they have a great reputation but, personally, I've always found them a bit on the bright side myself. Who's to say you don't find yourself in the same boat?

It sounds to me like you're trying to lower the water instead of raising the bridge. IMHSHO, if they don't sound "right" towards the end of the time you can return 'em, do just that and try other speakers.

 

[Tangent]

There's a lot of great ideas in this thread! Hopefully you can resolve your problem.

I would also suggest break in time if the system is very new. You don't even have to listen to it - just put a CD on repeat, turn it off when you go to bed or whatever.

Listen again after 48 hours of break in time.

If you clap your hands together and hear an echo, you need to fix that....

 

[goraman]

OK, last resort is the wet blanket mod.
just throw a heavy wet wool blanket over them,that will tame those unruly highs.

 

[2112]

What impedance are you running the speakers? If you are on the 8 ohm tap, try running them on the 4 ohm tap. Let us know what you find.

Just to be clear on this, no harm is possible to any of the components making this switch? :scratch2:

.

 

[Face]

Just to be clear on this, no harm is possible to any of the components making this switch? :scratch2:

.

Going to a lower tap, no.

Put some hours on your rig, some components can take a long time to break in. Let it run while you're doing things around the house, etc... If it's still too harsh in a few weeks, then it's time to start changing things around.

As mentioned before, it could just be the rig's synergy. I found B&W's diamond tweeters on the harsh side too. If you have two sets of speaker cables, you could run the tweeter on the 4ohm tap, and the mids/woofers on the 8ohm tap, that will tame some harshness.

 

[2112]

And if you are not bi-wired and you go to a lower tap, say 6 ohms, will you lose clarity and tightness in the bottom end?

.

 

[2112]

Update (for me at least)

I was having the same problem with brightness, especially on newer, overly compressed recordings. I just switched to the 6 ohm taps and wow, what a difference! No drawbacks at all as far as I can tell. It really toned down the piercing highs (hard rock at high volumes)

Thanks for the great suggestion.:thmbsp::yes: