I don't understand high dollar CD players...

Cool. Again, thanks for the honest replies based on personal experience. I agree, speakers and rooms offer the biggest potential effect.

It's been a long time since I've listened to Golden Earring, thanks for reminding me. Now, where's that Radar Love....
 
My simple humble experience is: every time I brought a higher quality CDP to my system, I noticed a much better reproduction of the actual sounds of classical music instruments, meaning a closer experience to what I remember from their sound at a live concert. This gave me more listening pleasure, and this is what I am after in the first place. I will therefore continue that road, saving some money and buying better CDPs, which I presume will enhance my listening pleasure even further. Classical music has lots of subtleties in the ways different musical instruments have for sound emission (e.g, in a violin, using different strings and finger positioning and pressure). I am not into demonstrating anything to anybody or convincing people that I am in the possession of truth. I just like to sit, listen and say to myself: "this sounds exactly as if Richter is playing for me in this room, I'm lucky!"
 
Jon, what are you listening for in terms of 'difference', and with what type of music?

Wow, good question. This was back in the day. In those days, I was listening to a lot of Rush, The Police, Dead Kennedy's, D.O.A.. I probably had some Manheim Steamroller and Linda Ronstadt (w/Nelson Riddle). I was working for a high end stereo store (Honker's Sound of Berkeley). I had my own musically appealing stuff and the high quality recorded stuff. I mean, I would never go see Manheim Steamroller in concert. I'm guessing my setup at the time was Saratoga co-axial speakers, M&K S1B + Volkwoofer B,Mark Levinson ML-3, SAE Mark IIIC, Yamaha C-4, Micro Seiki BL-51L, SME 3009 III, Dynavector D-27 Karat, Koetsu Black, Audio Technica TK-7. I can tell you the switch used for the interconnect and switch. It was a Penny & Giles, silver plated contact switch. I remember it being a PITA to locate and expensive. I think it was about $75 (USD) in the 80's.

I must add that before my test and during my tests, I believed there would be a difference. I was hell bent on proving it. As much as I tried, I knew that whatever the result, I had to be honest about it. Those experiments changed my mind. Now, I'd have to be convinced otherwise through my own ears, with an honest test.
 
Who ever said that?

If you can't hear the difference between a bottom-of-the-line CD player and one of the more expensive ones you need to get your hearing checked.

Amen.

I think it's also safe to say that an ARC preamp, or other similarily well designed pre amplifiers, can voice a system quite "differently" than a lesser unit. In fact, IMO a pre amp of this stature is quite often the secret door, which once discovered and walked through, most hobbyists will slam it shut and padlock it several times, never to return.

Bad analogy? Maybe, but it's early and I haven't had my coffee yet. My point is simply that a well made preamp makes differences that are flat out audible and evident.

I just got back my EICO HF-85. I had it fully restored, and the low gain modded to the Lipschitz RIAA curve, one of the most accurate available. In the meantime, I had my Bozak 919 in it's place. The 919 is solid state, and an absolute marvel, it's internal design is still relevant, all of these years later.

So...let me say firstly that the 919 absolutely squashed my old Kenwood Basic C1 in any area you may want to compare. From that point, I would say that between the Bozak and the EICO there is a HUGE sonic difference. Neither is particularily better, just a simple matter of taste.

I do however agree with room treatment being of the utmost importance. I don't need A/B testing...instead to each their own. We all hear what we hear, for whatever reasons. :yes:
 
Are you saying that the basis for what you're saying here is tests that you conducted at Honker's (!) in the late 1970s.....?
 
Let me expound upon what I think Jon is saying...I don't believe he is saying they all sound exactly the same, but the same enough that many/most people wouldn't be able to tell a difference.

Frankly, I tend to agree having done some CDP & DAC tests myself in blind, level matched conditions. Does that stop me from buying something more expensive or mean that I buy based on blind testing? Generally no; but in one specific case, yes. I returned a component because in these tests I couldn't reliably detect a difference.

I brought home a Forte preamp a few days ago and hooked it up, my first impression was WOW what a difference. At some point in the not to distant future I will do some A/B level matched testing to other preamps I have just to see if I think it's still a "WOW" or just another preamp that sounds about the same as my other ones.

Regardless of what I find, it's unlikely that it will significantly alter my pursuits or buying habits...but will certainly fit into the memory banks from which opinions are formed.
 
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Let me expound upon what I think Jon is saying...I don't believe he is saying they all sound exactly the same, but the same enough that many/most people wouldn't be able to tell a difference.

You 'get' exactly what I'm trying to convey. I get a little uncomfortable when people talk about night and day differences with electronics with such conviction and use strong language to convince others of these 'large' percieved differences. For me, I did 'hear' these large differences until I performed an A/B comparison with the ability to quickly toggle and have level matching amongst the two devices. I could have sat there and said "well, since the difference went away, the test must be flawed.". I never found any evidence that the test was flawed. The only flaw I saw, was that I did know which device was playing at a particular time. I thought that was an error that should have been done away with. I found that people are more motivated to prove there are differences than no differences. I don't know why, it's just data. The more honest, the better.

Regardless of what I find, it's unlikely that it will significantly alter my pursuits or buying habits...but will certainly fit into the memory banks from which opinions are formed.

I love sexy hardware. I'm still kicking myself for unloading my ML-3 amp. Dual mono torroids, huge heatsinks, fat faceplate, handles front and rear. It was really a statement piece and I appreciate it for what it is.

Nowadays, I've just come to my own conclusion that bang for the buck is all about speakers and rooms. Once speaker systems get to be much lower distortion and flatter amplitude response, then maybe I'll be able to percieve a difference in the bulk of (flat) electronics out there. With the current state of the art in speakers, I have a lot of time to wait.
 
So what do you use in your chain Jon? Passive pre? Variable output sources? Or do you use an active pre in spite of your opinions?

Not being condescending, rather truly curious as to your selection process. Simply find the best build for your budget?

Personally, if I had your take on controllers, I would go passive all the way. Some DACT attenuators, and be done with it. I know a guy who built a nice box for his, they have the old school Levinson look.

http://www.dact.com/html/passive_preamp.html


Here's a great recipe...

http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/899/dactct1.htm
 
I don't have anything against passive attenuators. I think they work well in certain situations. It's all about the application and engineering principles.

You want to drive signal lines in a way that the signal line's capacitance doesn't cause filtering within the audio band. If a passive attenuator fits the bill, I'm good with that.

I currently use a Lexicon DC-1. I usually feed it a digital source (Blu-Ray, HDTV, Airport Express), let the Lexicon decode it, then output down Canare Star Quad into powered speakers. The LFE goes to a parametric Eq to an Entec sub.

I got a good business to business deal on the Lexicon and it's a 'sexy' piece for me. I like the fact that I can run the digital sources in and don't have to worry about analog degradation up to the decoder. I'd use a passive attenuator if I needed one. I like the convenience of a remote and the volume tracking performance that the Lexicon offers. It's nice when the volume, crossover, and delays are all performed in the digital domain as well.

I don't try to tune my sytem with cables and flat electronics. I try to preserve the fidelity with my flat electronics, then use purpose built devices, such as eq's when I need to tune something.
 
I don't have anything against passive attenuators. I think they work well in certain situations. It's all about the application and engineering principles.

I was thinking more along the lines of price/performance. Since you find little to no differences amongst them, the passive route offers some significant savings. Of course, synergy would prevail. I think the most damning detail, as far as passive attenuators go, is the fact that you must have short runs of IC. Quite often this is a limiting factor, and a turn off.

Creek make a nice passive, complete with remote and some features more typical of an active pre.

Have you used any software to tune your room? I used ModeCalc, excellent. Luckily, I don't NEED an EQ. I was able to get most disagreeable nodes under wraps.
 
I was thinking more along the lines of price/performance. Since you find little to no differences amongst them, the passive route offers some significant savings. Of course, synergy would prevail. I think the most damning detail, as far as passive attenuators go, is the fact that you must have short runs of IC. Quite often this is a limiting factor, and a turn off.

Creek make a nice passive, complete with remote and some features more typical of an active pre.

Have you used any software to tune your room? I used ModeCalc, excellent. Luckily, I don't NEED an EQ. I was able to get most disagreeable nodes under wraps.


When I've tuned a room, I've used sweeps (I've got an hp 3580), tone generators, McIntosh AA2. I've used some automated systems (I have a DBX DriveRack), but I tend not to like those so much. They are okay for mids and upper frequencies if a good mic is accurately placed, but all bets are off for bass. You really need to spatially average bass by moving the mic around and integrating the results. The most current method for excitation signal I use is a shaped toneburst. I make them in MatLab, then burn them to a disc. They are 5 cycles and have a Hamming window shape. I find that it's a short enough duration that you primarily measure the early arrivals and not excite the secondary reflections/room too much. Adjusting for flat without separating the reverberation doesn't sound very good to my ears.

I DO need an EQ. I actually need more EQ. It just depends how picky you want to be, where you're eq'ing for, and what the room will allow you to tweak. You cannot boost where there is an acoustic cancellation. You can move the cancellation node by phase or level shifting, or physically moving the speaker (in some cases). I tend to eq' the broader peaks or dips and try not to worry about the more narrow bandwidth stuff. These errors in speaker/room amplitude responses and distortion are GARGANTUAN when compared to any decent wire or electronics. I can't overstate the difference in magnitude of the errors in speakers.

After measuring many speakers, I can say "It ain't only my speakers". All speakers have a long way to go.
 
Rush, The Police, Dead Kennedy's, D.O.A..

No wonder... With "music" such as above, you don't need high quality gear. Just use a cheap RadioShack boom box. It will suffice and is properly designed for such.:D:D:D
 
No wonder... With "music" such as above, you don't need high quality gear. Just use a cheap RadioShack boom box. It will suffice and is properly designed for such.:D:D:D

Uh oh. Here we go.

It's usually just a matter of time when the discussion degenerates into an elitist shot across the bow. Smiley faces :D don't make it okay either.
 
Uh oh. Here we go.

It's usually just a matter of time when the discussion degenerates into an elitist shot across the bow. Smiley faces :D don't make it okay either.

C'mon. Just kidding. I apologize if you are bothered by it. And really, the bands you mentioned are far more "elite" in our society than you give them credit for. At least from the wallet stand point.
 
I am not into demonstrating anything to anybody or convincing people that I am in the possession of truth. I just like to sit, listen and say to myself: "this sounds exactly as if Richter is playing for me in this room, I'm lucky!"

I feel exactly the same way about this subject.
 
this sounds exactly as if Richter is playing for me in this room, I'm lucky

If you set up a system where Richter is in the room, then I need the formula as well. :yes:

Radu Lupu is my guy along with Argerich.

Richter certainly had a tough life and I think it was instrumental in him being so rigid in interpreting composer's work without adding himself but instead, letting the music dissolve him in a sense.
 
Yesterday I phoned the two local importers of Cambridge Audio gear, because I was finally ready to afford buying a new 840 C, as an upgrade to my loyal 640 C. To my surprise, both told me that they had sold their recently imported stocks in less than two weeks! So, now I have to be on a waiting list ready for the next wave. Locally it is priced at the higher European figure (2000 $), rather than the lower American price. Nevertheless, it seems that dozens of local people are waiting to jump on those units!
 
Yesterday I phoned the two local importers of Cambridge Audio gear, because I was finally ready to afford buying a new 840 C, as an upgrade to my loyal 640 C. To my surprise, both told me that they had sold their recently imported stocks in less than two weeks! So, now I have to be on a waiting list ready for the next wave. Locally it is priced at the higher European figure (2000 $), rather than the lower American price. Nevertheless, it seems that dozens of local people are waiting to jump on those units!

Bonne chance guiller :thmbsp:
 
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