I give up! DAC? Transport?

And to make it even more confusing, I've got a Yamaha that is all that plus it can record CDRs and record to an internal hard drive.
I have a very good stand-alone DAC. I've used various CDPs with Digital-Outs as a transport — they make a big difference. Two of them completely outclassed 3 other such "transports" — combined with my DAC, they produced the best digital music I've ever heard. Plus they both had remotes, a good thing.

Then one of the good ones stopped working. The good one I have left is big and butt-ugly and I don't want to see it in my system.

So "any CDP with Dig-out" will not necessarily be a good transport. I'm still looking for one.

@KrisM — I also have that Yamaha, or similar; my internal hard drive is only 10Gig, so a lowly model. I've only used it as a CDP, and thought its sound mediocre. Are the CDRs it records any better? Would it be a good transport-only? (And I have the remote.) Thanks in advance for your guidance.
 
I have a very good stand-alone DAC. I've used various CDPs with Digital-Outs as a transport — they make a big difference. Two of them completely outclassed 3 other such "transports" — combined with my DAC, they produced the best digital music I've ever heard. Plus they both had remotes, a good thing.

Then one of the good ones stopped working. The good one I have left is big and butt-ugly and I don't want to see it in my system.

So "any CDP with Dig-out" will not necessarily be a good transport. I'm still looking for one.

@KrisM — I also have that Yamaha, or similar; my internal hard drive is only 10Gig, so a lowly model. I've only used it as a CDP, and thought its sound mediocre. Are the CDRs it records any better? Would it be a good transport-only? (And I have the remote.) Thanks in advance for your guidance.
Honestly, I can't speak to the quality of the DAC in it much. I've almost always just run the digital out to the home theater receiver in that system. No doubt most modern DACs would be a lot better, is my thought.

I haven't done much comparing with the CDRs it makes vs one out of a computer. I use it mostly for capturing live FM stuff, and love it for that.

The one I have seems like a well built unit. It might be great as a transport, so I'd say give yours a shot.
 
Ok, let me see if I've got this right. If you have a CDP (that has a built in DAC) and someone convinces you that you need an external(read, more expensive, DAC) do you just plug the CDP into the external DAC and the DAC into your AMP. Or on the other hand do you have to disconnect the internal DAC of the existing CDP and connect the new( read,more expensive) DAC to the transport of the existing CDP and then connect the new DAC to your AMP. If the former is true (connect the new DAC to the CDP) how does that make the signal better? If the latter is true (disconnect the existing DAC from the transport of the CDP) and connect the new DAC to the transport, how do you do that?
You have to look for a CDP or CDC (multi-disc CD player) that already has a digital output.

Digital outputs are SPDIF (coax) with a single RCA jack, or TOSLINK that uses a fiber optic cable.

You don't have to disconnect the internal DAC. The digital outputs by pass it.

Yes, you plug the CDP to the DAC, then the DAC to the amp.

The external DAC may not be superior to the one inside the CD player, but you hope that is, once you go to all that trouble and expense.

To some degree, you get what you pay.

I have three CD players and one PC plugged into my DAC.
 
Ok, let me see if I've got this right. If you have a CDP (that has a built in DAC) and someone convinces you that you need an external(read, more expensive, DAC) do you just plug the CDP into the external DAC and the DAC into your AMP. Or on the other hand do you have to disconnect the internal DAC of the existing CDP and connect the new( read,more expensive) DAC to the transport of the existing CDP and then connect the new DAC to your AMP. If the former is true (connect the new DAC to the CDP) how does that make the signal better? If the latter is true (disconnect the existing DAC from the transport of the CDP) and connect the new DAC to the transport, how do you do that?

If you use the digital output of the CDP, it totally bypasses the internal DAC of the CDP, so the only DAC and preamp output stage in use is the external DAC.
 
I'll add that if it weren't for transports and outboard dacs, I would have given up on the CD a long time ago. Starting in the mid-80s through the mid-90s, I went through probably 16 or 17 CDPs trying to find one that didn't cause "fatigue" before I went the separates route. I've never looked back, although I have heard a couple of 21st century CDPs that I could tolerate in a pinch.
 
Im probably the guy that got OP to start this post. Im not much of a CD home player but in the car, truck, ETC I do or I should say I did. Loaded my CDs in to my apple sent them in to my iPhone they sound like just noise cheap DAC. Then did some research found out the iPod 5.5 it has a Wolfson DAC in it. WoW what a difference. Boils down to it I asked OP if he a DAC CDP I don't know about CDPs I do know some player rock most just roll.
 
There is one piece to the puzzle that is often overlooked...the analog side. The best CDP's will have separate transformers for the audio section. Remember, the audio output is a signal amplifier and is subject to the same constraints as a speaker amplifier. The more the better.

8pVV0yK.jpg
 
The best CDP's will have separate transformers for the audio section.

The most expensive CDPs might...

An engineer who cannot provide adequate filtering on a single transformer power supply, sufficient to isolate drive supply noise from the signal processing noise, really doesn't deserve the title 'engineer'. Single transformer, decent filtering, separate supplies; drive supply, digital processing supply & low noise linear supply for the analogue signal processing really ought to be adequate.

Transformers aren't magic filtering beans. A properly engineered power supply architecture is closer to magic beans...
 
What if your Amp has a built in DAC? I use RCA cables out from my CDP, which has a good DAC, to my Integrated Amp, is the signal then run through the internal DAC in my amp, or is the internal DAC in the amp just for upgrading signals coming from the USB port on the front of the amp, when using an IPAD. Or upgrading a signal from the TV via a Toslink cable?
 
There is one piece to the puzzle that is often overlooked...the analog side. The best CDP's will have separate transformers for the audio section. Remember, the audio output is a signal amplifier and is subject to the same constraints as a speaker amplifier. The more the better
Separate power supplies for the analog and digital sections is only the beginning. What kind of transformer? R-core are typically the quietest. How well are they regulated? And what I find most important is the output stage itself. Recently I replaced the op amps in the garage DAC to discrete FET based units improving the sound quality. My Audio Research DAC uses a balanced JFET based output stage. One of my renderers uses a capacitor-battery based power supply that is galvanically isolated from the AC for the lowest noise.

Attached to the rear of the DAC is a microRendu which sources content from a PC via Ethernet located downstairs. Collectively, they are the transport.

urendu_sm.jpg
 
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I use RCA cables out from my CDP, which has a good DAC, to my Integrated Amp, is the signal then run through the internal DAC in my amp, or is the internal DAC in the amp just for upgrading signals coming from the USB port on the front of the amp, when using an IPAD.
The latter.

If you're sending the analog signal from your player to the amp via stereo cables, then its DAC is not employed. You would need to send a digital output from the player to a corresponding digital input on the amplifer depending upon which type S/PDIF, USB, Optical, AES, etc used.

And by no means would the transport in this case be limited to a iPad.
 
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So is not a Transport a CDP with a digital output so you can connect to something else with a DAC .... because you don’t like the built in one???
Understand that a transport is not limited to a device that spins plastic discs at 300 RPM.

It could be your computer's drive which increasingly may be a SSD (solid state drive, aka memory). It could be a USB stick. Many modern disk based players (Oppo, Sony, et al.) can play digital content from such. It could be internet radio or subscription service using a renderer to feed the DAC. I listen to Tidal HIFI in the garage using a Raspberry PI with digital output board. The digital signal originates with the cable modem, through the router and sent to the PI over a WiFI connection. There's nothing "spinning" anywhere in my house in that case.

rpi1217.jpg
 
^^^I'll quibble with that statement.

My PC has FLAC files on a SSD. Since it has no moving parts, it's technically, by definition, not a transport.

I'd call it a solid state signal source.

Unless electrons have momentum, like one of our new members is suggesting.
 
Im probably the guy that got OP to start this post..... Boils down to it I asked OP if he a DAC CDP I don't know about CDPs I do know some player rock most just roll.

I'm guessing by now at this stage in the thread you understand the CDP stands for CD Player?, if not in this case a stand alone device such as a Denon DCD-1500 (as seen here)

I guess you could call a computer a "CD Player" but when folks refer to CDP this is and many other manufactures is what they mean

denon_dcd-1500_compact_disc_player.jpg
 
Better DAC's have multiple PS, digital electronics have one supply and in the case of this Parasound D/AC-1000, each analog channel has it's own separate supply. See photo below.
Built in the early 90's I believe, this r2r DAC that utilizes two PCM63 DAC chips still sounds fantastic on Red Book material. The audio side is filled with Black Gate caps no less. Red Book meaning normal music CD's.
Parasound%2BD%2BAC-1000%2Binside.jpg


Another unit that I have is a Denon DA-500 from the same time period that uses 2x PCM1702-J DAC chips and has two PS. Another excellent sounding unit that works well with Red Book material but has no where near the build quality of the Parasound.
If your music library is mostly CD's than some of these older high end DAC's are still very much relevant despite what some want you to believe.
In the early 90's some of the big audio company's were spending big bucks in R&D to bring this stuff to market and trying to out do each other. What cost upwards of 1000 dollars back in the early 90's can often be purchased for about 100 bucks today.

BillWojo
 
The most expensive CDPs might...

An engineer who cannot provide adequate filtering on a single transformer power supply, sufficient to isolate drive supply noise from the signal processing noise, really doesn't deserve the title 'engineer'. Single transformer, decent filtering, separate supplies; drive supply, digital processing supply & low noise linear supply for the analogue signal processing really ought to be adequate.

Transformers aren't magic filtering beans. A properly engineered power supply architecture is closer to magic beans...

You need to be a very careful. :no:

That machine (Sony CDP-X7/77esd) SoCal pictured above, was designed by arguably the most accomplished audio engineer and digital design team ever. It's performance reached the theoretical limits of many CD parameters and still stands today as a technical tour-de-force.

Sony's Professional Division built it and one of Japan's most revered engineers, Dr* Heitaro Nakajima designed it along with his team of engineers. He actually wrote the book** on digital and received Japan's highest civilian honor for the development of CD, 10 years after its debut (the X7 (1989) was the ten year point 'X' from his first prototypes in 1979). Not only that, he ran the entire engineering, audio division and speaker design for Sony during the 1970s and is responsible for incredible advances in the state of the art all based on his many decades of solid engineering.

By all means, download and study the schematics and design of those machines and tell us where you think improvements could be made to their designs, specifically in the power supply department- I think we'd all be fascinated.

* Received his Bachelor's 1944 and his Doctorate in Engineering 1958.

**Digial Audio Technology- Heitaro Nakajima, Doi, Fukowa and Iga. 1979 and 1983. 312pages. (translated)

R.I.P. 9 December 2017
 
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Separate power supplies for the analog and digital sections is only the beginning. What kind of transformer? R-core are typically the quietest. How well are they regulated? And what I find most important is the output stage itself. Recently I replaced the op amps in the garage DAC to discrete FET based units improving the sound quality. My Audio Research DAC uses a balanced JFET based output stage. One of my renderers uses a capacitor-battery based power supply that is galvanically isolated from the AC for the lowest noise.

Attached to the rear of the DAC is a microRendu which sources content from a PC via Ethernet located downstairs. Collectively, they are the transport.

urendu_sm.jpg

All true, especially the op-amps. And the number of d/a chips matters as well. I've found that minimum one per channel helps clarity. Goes to show there is much more to CD than 1's and 0's.
 
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