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Idler wheel turntable opinions

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by 2020, Aug 31, 2017.

  1. setup1

    setup1 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    north of philly
    Unfortunately I don't have an idea where to get a belt for this Kenwood but if I find a source, I'll post it here.

    Thanks!

    Probably the nomenclature just differed due to where they were sold.

    JE
     

     

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  2. morris_minor

    morris_minor New Member

    Messages:
    27
    Location:
    Southern England
    Peter Reinders in the Netherlands makes his Solid9 and Solid12 turntables with refurbished Lenco motors/platters mounted in a custom top plate and a plinth made of Corian. There's an improved bearing available too. You can see/hear my Solid12/SME M2-12-r here.
     
    2020 and Westy56 like this.
  3. setup1

    setup1 AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    183
    Location:
    north of philly
    I’m not in a position to describe the technical difference between grease and oil bearing Garrard 301. But I’ve been using an early gray grease bearing 301 for over 20 years as my main turntable. I’ve also had a chance to hear oil vs. grease bearing 301s fitted with the same tonearm/cartridge in familiar set ups and I cannot tell if there is a significant difference in sound between the two.

    In the past I’ve used Castrol GTX which worked but too thick - took a little longer for the platter to get up to speed. Now I use 2.5 NGLI multi-purpose grease from Home Depot or Lowe's for my G301, Neat P58H and will use the same on the PC350 when the need arises.

    JE
     
  4. 2020

    2020 Active Member

    Messages:
    158
    Those Lencos are NICE!
     
  5. doctor fuse

    doctor fuse AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    1,142
    Location:
    Victoria, BC, CANADA
    The Dual 1009 (I have the SK version) is a fun-sounding little table. Very punchy, but decent resolution!

    I want to try it with a Benz MC cartridge.
     
  6. 2020

    2020 Active Member

    Messages:
    158
    Hi Flasher 1. Thanks for offering to be a resource about questions on this turntable. I am planning to change out grease. It looks like there are two bearing wells: one for the spindle and one for a pulley driven by the belt. I am attaching pictures of the underside for reference. (I'm not sure "bearing well" is the correct technical name for the parts I am discussing. That's just my best guess.) The spindle bearing looks like it could easily be removed from above, but the other bearing well(?) looks like it would have to be removed from beneath.

    Both of the bearing wells LOOK like the bottoms could be screwed off from beneath without removing them for the table itself. Do you think that would work OK?

    Also, what is your recommendation for grease for these bearings? I have seen several types of grease recommended, and am curious if you have a preference.

    Thanks again for offering to help. Sorry if I am being a PITA.
     

    Attached Files:

     

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  7. flasher1

    flasher1 Active Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Austin, Texas USA
    Not a PITA at all. It would work better if we could speak and I hate to type on a phone but here goes:
    The spindle wells both can be removed by the top by removing three screws. Both you don’t really need to because as you’ve already figured out, you can unscrew the bottom. Once you do you will look into the cap and will probably see something green and nasty looking. It is what’s left of the thrust washer. I believe it was originally a wax like substance. Anyway, both of mine were messed up. I dugout all the old stuff, cleaned the cap real well, then made some new thrust washers that were approximately the same thickness. Installed them in the cap, and added some oil and screwed the cap on. That’s it. You will most likely need two new thrust washers made.
    I cut mine out of a piece of white cutting board on my table saw. I’ve seen some trust washers in different sizes at a large ace hardware. You know the ones with all the little boxes with odd screw, washers etc.
    Hope that helps. Mine is the most quiet tables I’ve ever had.
     
  8. 2020

    2020 Active Member

    Messages:
    158
    That does help. In fact it helps a lot. I got antsy and opened up the bottom of the smaller well and saw EXACTLY what you described! There was little or no grease in there, and the thrust washer was in tiny pieces, just like you said. It had started to make a slight rattling noise, so I stopped using it immediately.

    I can't tell at all what the original part looked like. Would a regular old rubber or plastic washer do? Or would the hole in the middle of the washer be a problem? Thanks again.
     
  9. Catmanboo

    Catmanboo AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    529
    Location:
    Atwater, ohio
    Idlers are torquey, durable machines. I have a 50H & a 770H . If you use a discwasher or similar wet-wipe cleaner,prior to playing, these can't be beat. On a silent groove, you may get a bit of rumble, but low-filter can mitigate that. I can live with it. Belt or direct -driven tables will bog down when using this method of cleaning. Reliability plus! But that's just me...:rockon:
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2018
  10. flasher1

    flasher1 Active Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Austin, Texas USA
    No can do. The bottom of the spindle has a rounded point at the bottom. That point rests on the heist washer. It’s really a thrust disk. That crud that is in the bottom was the old thrust washer.
    I use a cutting board as they are made of PTFE or something like that and it is very slick and makes a good bearing surface for the spindle. I have a strip of it left over. If it looks suitable, I let you have it. You will just have to cut the disks out of it.
     
  11. 2020

    2020 Active Member

    Messages:
    158
    I'm having a hard time picturing the cutting board being thin enough to use. Aren't most of them about 1/4 inch thick? The little fragment I removed looked more like a 16th of an inch thick. Does that matter?
    Could I just buy a cutting board at a discount store?
    Would something like this work? https://www.ebay.com/itm/Teflon-Ptf...hash=item213901aa88:m:mdlNCbMhxsxy0058fBYcvNA
    Thanks again
     

     

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  12. HTHMAN

    HTHMAN Super Member

    Messages:
    3,513
    Location:
    St Louis, Missouri, USA
    I had a Bogen/Lenco B60 with a stamped steel platter. I would avoid that one as it has severe rumble, My Dual 1009F and 1015 models were vastly superior. The Lencos with heavy platters are probably a lot better.
     
  13. Toptip

    Toptip New Member

    Messages:
    7
    I am in the middle of renovating two 1959 RCA cartridge (tape) players and I have nothing good say about idler wheels.

    Others have mentioned rumble transmitted by an idler. Yes, that is a major issue. But it gets worse. You are relying on the perfect circularity of a piece of rubber to maintain constant speed. That is hard to achieve. Where the rubber touches the motor shaft or the turntable, it deforms a bit. If it does not, then it is probably too hard and may slip.

    In belt drive all wheels are of rigid metal. The belt just has to have a smooth inner surface and all goes well. Plus the belt provides tremendous isolation against rumble.

    People refer to superior torque when talking about idler drives. First you really need very little torque in a turntable. In a tape player where you need more (fast forward, rewind all require some) the idler shows its worst — see the required torque makes the idler press harder or softer against the motor shaft (and the other turning part), partially helped by a spring. This all becomes quite unstable and only works when the rubber’s coefficient of friction and the pressure from the combination of the spring and motor torque all work optimally... a rare event.

    In sum, idlers are fine as a historic curiosity but have little place or use in today’s world. Even HDDs use belt or direct drive.
     
  14. Rog50

    Rog50 Active Member

    Messages:
    303
    Location:
    Ontario
    My lenco l 70 with a new Audiosilente idler wheel is the quietest table I have. Sony Ps X6, Technics Sl D202 and Pioneer PL 10. Only gripe I have is my Ortofon MC10 Super cart does not get along with the AC motor. So I stick to MM carts for now.

    Using the iphone RPM app, my Lenco holds dead on at 33.39 rpm.

    My Dual1229 I had for a short time sounded very nice but had bit of rumble that is non existent in the Lenco
     
  15. Kim G

    Kim G Super Member

    Messages:
    1,256
    Tiptop - new here aren't you ;)

    :lurk:
     
  16. flasher1

    flasher1 Active Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Austin, Texas USA
    Double that!
     

     

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  17. TomInTacoma

    TomInTacoma d/b/a Vinyl Reclamation Sponsor

    Messages:
    841
    Location:
    DuPont, WA
    Funny enough - a PC350 came into the shop this weekend. It's seen better days and will likely become a donor machine. It's the first one I've seen. It certainly is an interesting turntable!
     
  18. flasher1

    flasher1 Active Member

    Messages:
    499
    Location:
    Austin, Texas USA
    Do you care to sell it? I could use the parts. I have a KP-5021 which has many of the same parts.
    Larry
     
  19. Metalownz

    Metalownz Audiophile? Getting there

    Messages:
    2,549
    Location:
    Birdsboro PA
    My vote goes for my Pioneer PL-7E. Restored by me and its as quiet as any belt drive table ive ever heard. Idler wheel rebuilt.
     

    Attached Files:

    2020 likes this.
  20. 2020

    2020 Active Member

    Messages:
    158
    VERY Nice!
     
    Metalownz likes this.

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