Improving "Depth"...Tips/Suggestions, Please?

[Todd Dodds]

I've learned a lot in the past year on this site. Although I'm beginning to get a handle on most of the gear, acoustics and tech issues, "depth" of field is by far the area of least progress. Are there any particular recordings that are especially good examples of depth that would be helpful to gauge improvements as I start shuffling speakers around?
I'd appreciate any tips or general observations.

I'm using mostly tube amps (MC30's, MC275, Fisher X202, 300B), but also SS MC2205, small Kenwood KA3500, Dynaco 416, and a big honking White Oak Phase Linear that produces depth by blowing walls out...thanks, Ron...

Speakers are Khorns (not much I can do about moving them), Altec 19, Bozak Symphonies, and stacked DQ-10's built on a rack that makes them easily moveable on the carpeted floor.

 

[Boonaroo]

You have some very nice gear!!!

I am not in a position to own any Mac gear and may never have that privilege. I have owned a number of Kenwood Basic line pieces from the mid 80s that I really enjoyed. Not had any experience with any of your other pieces, but I am sure that they are on par with your other taste in equipment.

In my opinion, speakers are where you experience the most "depth of field" while listening. I have never owned any of the large Khorns or Altecs. I have had the pleasure of listening to large Klipsch and Bozak speakers. Not every been impressed with Klipsch products from the early days. Too narrow of a sound stage for my taste. I have only hear one large pair of Bozak's when I was in college. They were a preacher friends who had a vintage Marantz integrated and a nice table in the mix. Was a bit stoned and tipsy, but it was an amazing setup.

I think your DQ-10s are your saving grace where depth is concerned. Excellent speaker when reworked and set up correctly. Never heard them stacked, but I am sure that can only add to the experience.

One final note. Not to start a flame war, but cabling mad a huge difference in my systems. Particularly were interconnects are concerned. I used Transparent in my "High End" system consisting of Bryston, Rega, and Sony 7 speakers. I did use Transparent for speaker cables also.

Enjoy the music!!!

 

[canuckaudiog]

For depth recordings, I quite like this one:
The Coryells, “Sentenza del Cuore – Allegro”

I found this recording in an article about recordings that test your stereo out. Here is the description they gave:

"The Coryells – a self-titled album featuring jazz guitarist Larry Coryell and his hyper-talented sons, Julian and Murali – is one of the best that Chesky Records has ever done. And that's saying a lot. This particular song is a favorite for judging soundstage depth.

Listen for the castanets in the recording, as they are key to cluing you in. If the instruments sound like they're coming from 20 or 30 feet behind the guitars, and if you can hear them echoing off the walls and ceiling of the large church where this recording was made, then your system is doing a fine job at playing it right."

https://www.lifewire.com/stereo-test-tracks-3134905

 

[Bubbalouie]

Sorry - Duplicate Post.

 

[Bubbalouie]

The Who Quadraphenia - Released October 1973. Were there other albums released during the 1970s?

The best example for depth I have found is Roger Waters Amused To Death. Original release date was 1991 or 1992. My system provides me a 3D holographic sound. With 3D and depth, this album blows my mind every time its played.

 

[sKiZo]

You want depth? How about the soundtrack to The Abyss? <G>

If you're talking imaging, Dire Straights Brothers in Arms anniversary addition is amazing. Another good one is Pink Floyd's Wish You Were Here. Porcupine Tree also has a lot of fun with most of their studio recordings.

As far as setup ,,, don't forget toe and height, as both can have a major impact on creating the field. Also, pay particular attention to the mfg's recommendation for placement, as that can make or break the system when it comes to secondary reflections and the like.

 

[WaynerN]

Dead Can Dance - Spiritchaser on MOFI

 

[Todd Dodds]

For depth recordings, I quite like this one:
The Coryells, “Sentenza del Cuore – Allegro”

I found this recording in an article about recordings that test your stereo out. Here is the description they gave:

"The Coryells – a self-titled album featuring jazz guitarist Larry Coryell and his hyper-talented sons, Julian and Murali – is one of the best that Chesky Records has ever done. And that's saying a lot. This particular song is a favorite for judging soundstage depth.

Listen for the castanets in the recording, as they are key to cluing you in. If the instruments sound like they're coming from 20 or 30 feet behind the guitars, and if you can hear them echoing off the walls and ceiling of the large church where this recording was made, then your system is doing a fine job at playing it right."

https://www.lifewire.com/stereo-test-tracks-3134905

Well that was damn encouraging! The castanets were 30' feet back, and well off to the right of the soundstage (that's where they're 'spoda be?). I also found the article you referenced, and listened to some of their other recommendations. Holly Cole's "Train Song", I wasn't able to hear the chime they reference, but that's probably just my wore out earbones, a result of too many "listening" sessions like Boonaroo mentions (above).

Going to get to the rest of the suggestions this eve...thanks, all. Well, going to get to ones I can, anyway...doubt even Amazon could get WaynerN's MOFI album to me tonight, but i'll see if Spotify or Tidal have a generic version of it.

 

[qdrone]

Depth? Do you own a turntable? When I was in high school there were three bands whose recording techniques delivered the goods
STEELY DAN suggestion Aja
10 c.c. suggestion How Dare You?
SUPERTRAMP suggestion Crime Of the Century.
Try the song Wendy off of Concrete Blonde's Bloodletting. On Cd that is as holographic as it gets.

 

[Todd Dodds]

Depth? Do you own a turntable? When I was in high school there was three bands whose recording techniques delivered the goods
STEELY DAN suggestion Aja
10 c.c. suggestion How Dare You?
SUPERTRAMP suggestion Crime Of the Century.
Try the song Wendy off of Concrete Blonde's Bloodletting. On Cd that is as holographic as it gets.

Yes, got turntables, but none of the above listed albums. If the Concrete Blond Bloodletting on CD is good, do you reckon a Hi-Rez Tidal file would be as good?
Streaming Aja sounds fine, but I have a hard time placing instruments and determining any front/rear placement.

 

[qdrone]

Yes, got turntables, but none of the above listed albums. If the Concrete Blond Bloodletting on CD is good, do you reckon a Hi-Rez Tidal file would be as good?
Streaming Aja sounds fine, but I have a hard time placing instruments and determining any front/rear placement.

Give it a try and forgive me the song is Tomorrow,Wendy. The whole album is good.

 

[qdrone]

If you can get a hold of The Stereophile test Cd's they are invaluable. They deal with speaker placement,toe in, making sure your speakers are not out of phase,distance to place speakers apart etc.
Also don't discount Mono recordings. PET SOUNDS OR SRGT.PEPPER on vinyl is a treat.

 

[stoutblock]

What size and shape is your listening room? I'm not personally familiar with your speakers but my experience is to get them away from the walls. A couple feet from the side and three feet from the front wall. More if you can but closer to a side wall than to the front wall. I do know your speakers are big so if you have a smaller room I really don't know what to tell you. I have had my best luck with tall tower type speakers that have fairly small foot prints. You have a lot of options to place them and the sound reflections can get around them. Once I am familiar with a room, I pretty much know where to put the speakers and I seldom move them more than 12" or so but it does take time to get familiar with how speakers interact with a room.

A really special trick I've learned that speeds things up, and works specifically well with depth, is to use a mono recording. Something with vocals and accustic instruments along with some brass. Adjust your speakers, listening position, reflection points etc until you get the best depth. If you have a mono switch, you can do this with stereo recordings but good mono recordings seem to work the best. You can find this can be done fairly quick compared to doing the same adjustments with two separate channels. Toe in has quite an effect on depth in my experience. Once you have the most depth you can achieve in mono, listen to a good stereo recording and I think you will be amazed at the results. I typically find the staging and imaging also sound spot on with the same setup,

Also, realize that magic can happen with the right room, speakers and equipment but is also limited by the same. In any case, it is certainly rewarding when you setup what you own for the best results possible.

 

[Djcoolray]

Keeping the speakers at least two feet away from the walls and about ten feet from each other helps...

 

[darkblue94]

Keeping the speakers at least two feet away from the walls and about ten feet from each other helps...

It doesn't help much if the speakers were designed to be placed closer to walls/corners or closer to each other. The room they're sitting in has something to do with it as well.

 

[Djcoolray]

It doesn't help much if the speakers were designed to be placed closer to walls/corners or closer to each other. The room they're sitting in has something to do with it as well.

True....

I'm thinking of the larger variations with port holes in the back. For the equipment he's using, closed back don't figure !!!

 

[JRhoBurton]

A good recording:

Grandes Heures Liturgiques à Notre-Dame de Paris

https://www.amazon.com/Grandes-Heures-Liturgiques-Notre-Dame-Paris/dp/B001OWJRHU

CD and vinyl are both good.

Comments already made about getting the speakers away from the walls make sense. I find that even small changes in toe-in or out can affect imaging and depth substantially. Room treatments can help. If you sit fairly close to the rear wall, try something sound absorbent behind you.

 

[orsen]

The best example for depth I have found is Roger Waters Amused To Death. Original release date was 1991 or 1992. My system provides me a 3D holographic sound. With 3D and depth, this album blows my mind every time its played

that album sounds that way because its one of a few recorded in "Q sound"
there are a few others, i know madonona used it

"Amused to Death was produced by Patrick Leonard, Waters, and was co-produced with Nick Griffiths in London at The Billiard Room, Olympic Studios, CTS Studios, Angel Studios and Abbey Road Studios. The album was engineered by Hayden Bendall, Jerry Jordan, and Stephen McLaughlan and mixed by James Guthrie.[8] The album is mixed in QSound to enhance the spatial feel of the audio, and the many sound effects on the album – rifle range ambience, sleigh-bells, cars, planes, distant horses, chirping crickets, and dogs – all make use of the 3-D facility."

 

[dave1701]

What does depth of field mean in audio? As far as I know, that's a photography term. If you are looking for better dynamic range, your best bet would be to listen to digital audio at 24 bit. At 16 or 24 bit depth, digital audio has a noise floor far below that of analog formats and thus is capable of much greater dynamic range. Of course, this is all reliant on proper mastering of the song.

 

[sKiZo]

Width and height of the stage ... consider it more of a perceptual vs a real rendition of your environment. In this regard, there's many similarities to what you perceive visually when setting up a photograph, and what you'll be hearing once you address these issues aurally.

Goal is to capture and accurately place all the audio cues in a work as the masters intended, and by masters, I mean the artist, producer, mixer ... everyone involved in the piece. Your best bet would be to set up your system using classical orchestral works, as instrument placement tends to be quite fixed. There will of course be exceptions, but if you're hearing things as you would live, then the rest of the genres will fall into place.

And yes, it can be a lot of work, but it's certainly worth it. It's all about realism and the ability to listen and suspend disbelief - as in, I'm there!

PS ... I do agree, this whole concept should be defined more as "stage", but depth of field does enter into the conversation. Done right, you should have sound coming from all over the room, courtesy of direct transmission from the drivers AND the various secondary waves and sound reflections. Close your eyes, and the speakers disappear. Ambiance is key, and that's where it gets tricky. I highly recommend using REW (Room EQ Wizard) to help you determine what you've got and where you've got to go. Exceptional software to analyze a listening environment, telling you exactly where you are and where you need to go. This includes not only frequency response, but all those reflections and waves mentioned earlier, taking the guesswork right out of it and giving you professional voicing at minimal expense.