In setting up a sound board...a question...maybe more than one?

[Quadman2]

Sound boards and how they are set up have always been a mystery for me.

At the different venues/performances I've been to I've gotten to know that a soundman has to take a lot of variables into account in order to bring about the best outta the different situations. The environment factors in, the type of equipment, the sort of music played, instruments themselves, the different wants of the players, the mikes used and probably the audience as well.

To a point I can tell if the music controller is experienced if the vocals are muffled some often or one player in the band is overwhelming the rest of the performers. Some bands seem really fussy about how the set has been made.

In starting this thread I was hoping to better understand how boards are set up, and if most of the times some of the settings are meant to highlight certain instruments or is it just left to the individual board guy to deal with what he/she can. I'll bet that the highliner often gets special treatment/consideration.

Q

 

[Quadman2]

What? No takers on this thread?

Was hoping that some active/past band people might chime in on what it takes and what makes a good board operator? Would like to know what some of the in's and out's were in order to set up a good board and some of the problems inherent in this endeavour.

Q

 

[Mrv8q]

The last small venue I was at, the sound mixer used an iPad (!) as his mixer. He stepped me through all the things he was doing, track by track, and it boggled my mind.

I used to live mix on a 24 track analog board, and the new digital revolution is amazing! the small show sounded good, but compromised by the PA speakers, which he had no choice but to use.

 

[Farmhand]

I never had the nerve to run sound and restricted myself to lighting. Less pressure and a better view.

I've been to more than one show where the sound for the opening act was trashed- especially if that opener is as good as or better than the headliner. Then suddenly the sound is excellent when the headliner is on. I imagine a couple hundred bucks delivered to the sound booth might cause that.

 

[CrawfishKing]

It really depends as you kinda said initially. An experienced mixer will at bare minimum have to find room in the sonic field for all the instruments/vocals. Sometime this means intentionally burying things that aren't working/ don't sound good. A really tight band will actually mix themselves for the large part, so once balance is set, in some cases the mixer there there more as a fail safe (ei. feedback occurs, someone steps on a cable pulling it out of their instrument creating a huge buzz - mixer mutes it)

A lot of bar mixers or lower level mixers just aren't very invested in the bands, they've become jaded or feel their above what they are doing. So these folks tend to "set and forget" the levels as the saying goes unless they are young and trying to make a reputation.

Guys who are into it for the art are what makes a good show great, thats where a lot of the variables you were talking about come into play. But thats more of an assessment, and once they get into it it all has very little to do with it. It's like looking under the hood of a car before you drive, has very little to do with the functions (doesn't change that theres a gas and break, or wether you like to listen to the radio) but lets you know if you should expect good milage, or a good time accelerating on the highway.

The biggest tools are compression (to stop spikes in volume), delay and reverb (usually people have preferences for certain instruments - for example I like using reverb on snare and toms, but will usually tap tempo a delay for a 'slap back' vocal (these are common preferences, I'm not the first by any means) and the most important tool of all... EQUALIZERS! This is how you take a bunch of individual tracks and make them fit together while maintaining a distinct image on its own. Its also the strongest ally against feedback. An experienced engineer knows what frequencies are necessary in the track for the mix to make it sound proper while not muddying up surrounding elements. This can be a keyboard and guitar (both lots of mids) that need to be panned away from one another to create room, or a kick drum and bass guitar which both have lots of the same information. So you you could EQ the bass to have a lot more sub energy and have the attack (beater) of the kick be the main focus of the kick sound. The idea is that the kick will sit above the bass in this example, creating room for both. Often a snare and vocal will need the same treatment as another example.

Hope this helps, could go on a loooonnnggg time haha, might be worth checking out a couple articles on mixing live music, theres lots of info out there.

A lot of this applies to mixing albums too (my main background while I do both), but a word of warning, the more you know about this stuff the more you will be impressed with a good mix, but the more you look for the mix quality. You don't get lost in the music the same way when you analyze it as such.

Cheers,
Matt

 

[soundmig]

There's a lot more to it than most people ever imagine. I've done sound for everything from broadway style productions (these are difficult btw), to rock bands, to church worship services ..... and even the dreaded battle of the bands situation where every 15 minutes its new instrumentation, new performers and a new mix. As has been stated there are some very important tools (EQ's, compressors, reverbs, delays, etc.) One of the more welcome advances in the last 15 years or so has been the development of the speaker controller. These devices take a lot of the work of "tuning" of the main speaker system and make it easier to get a good sound from the FOH system. In my experience those who are good at getting good FOH sound and a good quality mix are or have been musicians (as I am) as well as being technically competent enough to understand signal flow through the mixer - and the entirety of the system. Many mixes are destroyed because the person running the mixer does not understand signal flow and the importance of properly adjusting input trim and then balancing signal levels throughout the various sections of the mixer. Overdrive the input on a mic pre-amp or a line input and you get a harsh sound that is not pleasant. Fail to manage the signal so that the combined signal of all of the drum mics going into the drum subgroup and you can overdrive the subgroup electronics - again creating harsh and sometimes splatty sounds. Fail to manage the signals of the subgroups such that they can be combined without overdriving the inputs to the main (L&R) output stages and again - you get crap.

BUT .... the guy or gal mixing the monitors has the real tough job AND he/she can make or break the sound that the audience hears. Depending upon the complexity of the system that individual may be responsible for somewhere between 8 to 20 different mixes (different mix for each person on stage). AND if in-ears are being used that person has responsibility for NOT killing any of the musicians ears! Many FOH mixes fail because the monitors are not well mixed - plain and simple. Outdoors this is a little less of an issue, but indoors you can turn off the main speakers and still hear a whole lot of sound (all coming from the monitors) out in the audience (FOH - Front Of House). IF there is too much bass in the monitors (and the musicians tend to want this) it can seriously muddy up the sound being heard by the audience. Also, most of the feedback that is heard in live situation is monitor feedback (although the advent of feedback suppression devices has improved this situation). Personally, I prefer to control both the monitor and FOH sound mixes, but not all sound engineers can do both as it is a circus act of juggling that requires never ending concentration. The newer digital consoles make this proposition a bit easier as the FOH console can be used for all of the mixes with the monitor mix being able to be controlled (if so desired) on-stage using an iPad. This helps with "sound check" as you can be on stage with the musicians while doing the initial set-up of the monitor mixes. With many of the newer boards you can also walk around the audience and adjust the FOH mix using an iPad. The digital consoles also have a tremendous amount of processing available on each individual channel (compression, noise gate, EQ, phase adjustment)

Another item that I think few concert goers grasp is just how much unwanted sound comes through virtually every microphone on stage. A live sound mixer has to take into account the drum sounds that are coming through the vocal mics, the bass guitar coming through the kick drum mic, the kick drum coming through the Bass guitar mic (if its mic'd and it usually isn't), everything trying to come through the drum overhead mics, etc., etc. While you can use noise gates to automatically "shut off" a mic when the instrument it is picking up isn't playing, that process has its downside and has to be used carefully. Its' really a very complex situation, but it is a challenge that is a lot of fun. If you go to a show and If the sound is good, show the sound guy some love because he's/she's not likely to get any recognition whatsoever even though he puts in more hours than you can imagine to bring you a good show.

 

[Quadman2]

The last small venue I was at, the sound mixer used an iPad (!) as his mixer. He stepped me through all the things he was doing, track by track, and it boggled my mind.

Bloody H##! Just an "ipad" to do the mixing!? Wonders will never cease for me..."an ipad"! They prob have a gizmo on the drawing board that will illiminate mix boards and the mixers using them. Just that ONE punch, and voila...the whole event is now set up!



I used to live mix on a 24 track analog board, and the new digital revolution is amazing! the small show sounded good, but compromised by the PA speakers, which he had no choice but to use.

I never had the nerve to run sound and restricted myself to lighting. Less pressure and a better view.



I hear ya. Have run into some analogue/digital probs myself that repq'd adapters that I had to learn about myself as the techs either didn't know how to cope or suggest what to do. Mind you that was two years ago, which is a lifetime in terms of the electronics today, eh?




I've been to more than one show where the sound for the opening act was trashed- especially if that opener is as good as or better than the headliner. Then suddenly the sound is excellent when the headliner is on. I imagine a couple hundred bucks delivered to the sound booth might cause that.

Interesting! And I mean really interesting. Now we are talking musical politics.

Reminds me when Stevie Ray V was the intro guy, brand new on the scene. He "blew away" the audience. The mainliner (won't mention out of respect for them) must have have a heck of a time coming on stage after Stevie's act and the sound man must have had to up his act as well.

Ya got me thinkin'...again.

 

[Quadman2]

Thanks for the indepth report you made, soundmig.

There IS more to it than meets the EAR.


Q

 

[PureQuill]

Running live sound is a pretty thankless job.
If the band sounds great…Well isn’t that your job? What do you want a medal?
If things go south…it is always your fault.
Then add in if it’s a club and there is no security.
Often drunken patrons that know nothing inevitably feel free to tell you how “ bad” it sounds and what you need to do to “fix the mix”.
I once worked with a band that gave me a T-shirt that said “Warning-I am the Sound Man Don’t F*ck with me!”

Cheers
PQ

 

[BushmasterM4]

Here is a PA guide I found useful. http://yorkville.com/downloads/other/paguide.pdf Mackie has a reference manual that I am trying to locate which is very good too. Will add it once I find it.

 

[Quadman2]

Running live sound is a pretty thankless job.
If the band sounds great…Well isn’t that your job? What do you want a medal?
If things go south…it is always your fault.
Then add in if it’s a club and there is no security.
Often drunken patrons that know nothing inevitably feel free to tell you how “ bad” it sounds and what you need to do to “fix the mix”.
I once worked with a band that gave me a T-shirt that said “Warning-I am the Sound Man Don’t F*ck with me!”

Cheers
PQ

Feelin' a bit on the low side this day...weather's finally gettin' to me...but yer post kinda lightened up the day with yer comments, re. a crowd's reaction at times.

Last Fall I attended an outdoor music event...a local rock group who tends towards the classic style with a few new ones tunes thrown in for variety. Anyways, OUTDOOR they sounded completely different.
Curiosity got the better of me, so just had to go over to the board guy to see what was up since in a club/pub scene they sounded great. In this venue, they "sucked"!

The guy at the sound controls smiled and remarked, "I know it's bad, eh?" This kinda peaked my interest so wanted to know why the sound was sad, and why wasn't he working to make it any better. Wasn't the board he told me. State of the art and a great brand.

Guess he was told by the group that they were really weak in the vocal dept so they wanted to highlight the instruments as they were proficient in their playing. I just shrugged my shoulders and walked away. throughtout the sets there seemed to be a lot of jockying about and resets going on between the players.

We left early. It was like listening to another band because of the way the group had instructed the mixer to set it up in the way that the sound board would compensate for their lack in singing skills.

You made me think of the above with your post as well.


Q

 

[valvenator]

If you ask the drummer, the drums are too quiet, if you ask the Guitar player, the Guitar is too low,
ask the Bass player, "turn up the bass", ask the main vocalist, ummmmm no, better yet don't ask.

Proper mixing is truly an Art. I've seen/heard too many amateurs trying to run a soundboard.
It's such a beautiful pleasure to work with one that actually knows what he's doing.
One gig I remember, we had a drummer who couldn't tune his drums for schizz.
The sound man had him sounding like god in a matter of minutes.

 

[jsixis]

I may have to go back to running sound for bands, I am not looking forward to it but I have learned one thing.
Most musicians would rather hear a small amp clip then a large one breathe.
They seldom care about clarity and it is really hard to get vocals out front when a drummer plays at 105db, the guitarist wants his guitar as loud as the snare and the bass player wants to be as loud as the guitarist and the singer can't project above 95db. Most do not practice that loud, yet when they play out they want to crank it.
I have mixed some bar bands there was no reason for main speakers, we would turn them off since they had to have the monitors so loud they were cancelling the mains.
Then about once every 20 bands you find a group that get it, and the night is extremely pleasing, the bar gets packed, the girls start dancing and you never want it to end.
Then at 3 or 4 am when your pulling in the garage you know the weekend is ruined

 

[Chip Chester]

Good thoughts above. Some more details: If the mix consists of on-stage sources that aren't mic'd, or aren't under mixer's control, it's a very difficult job.
If monitor isolation from microphones is not controlled, and artists' mic technique isn't good, it's a very difficult job.
If mixer is responsible for FOH, monitors, in-ear monitors, and a recording mix, it's a difficult job.

Did I mention it's a difficult job?

Chip

 

[Quadman2]

Just had a thought...kinda board related. Do the non corded( wi/fi) mikes have any effect on the resulting sound or in the setting up of the boards? Curious.

Q

 

[jsixis]

only when the singer d

Just had a thought...kinda board related. Do the non corded( wi/fi) mikes have any effect on the resulting sound or in the setting up of the boards? Curious.

Only when the singer forgets to turn it on and looks at you like it is your fault, then you have to walk out on stage and turn it on for them.
Another problem, when the buy the cheaper shure wireless mic for office meetings, it doesn't have the gain needed for a stage.

 

[Quadman2]

only when the singer d


Only when the singer forgets to turn it on and looks at you like it is your fault, then you have to walk out on stage and turn it on for them.
Another problem, when the buy the cheaper shure wireless mic for office meetings, it doesn't have the gain needed for a stage.

Makes sense. I suppose too that batteries can create havoc in the middle of a set or even a song, and I'll bet that some players forget to even check the charge before they hit the stage.

 

[Quadman2]

Again about the soundboard...I got to talking with an electronic type who said that the quality of the components can make a difference, as was pointed out in the use of wireless mics. But he was also quick to point out that the operator was even a bigger factor.

Must follow up as he kinda left me in the dust with the electrical jargon that he was using. He just was getting into the size of boards (# of tracks) when he had to be off on an appointment.

Q

 

[PureQuill]

I may have to go back to running sound for bands, I am not looking forward to it but I have learned one thing.
Most musicians would rather hear a small amp clip then a large one breathe.
They seldom care about clarity and it is really hard to get vocals out front when a drummer plays at 105db, the guitarist wants his guitar as loud as the snare and the bass player wants to be as loud as the guitarist and the singer can't project above 95db. Most do not practice that loud, yet when they play out they want to crank it.
I have mixed some bar bands there was no reason for main speakers, we would turn them off since they had to have the monitors so loud they were cancelling the mains.
Then about once every 20 bands you find a group that get it, and the night is extremely pleasing, the bar gets packed, the girls start dancing and you never want it to end.
Then at 3 or 4 am when your pulling in the garage you know the weekend is ruined

YEP!
Professional musicians understand that controlling your volume both on stage and to match it to the venue is job one!
Too loud stage volume causes feedback and a long list of other issues. (mic bleed & spill!)
The #1 complaint about live bands…Your too loud!

1st sign of weekend warriors and not pros
Big egos and little talent who over emphasize their equipment and that think… Oh look at how big my drum kit is or how awesome my full 100 watt Marshall stack is… in clubs that seat 75 patrons.
My biggest complaint with guitar players is I have to set my volume at __ to get my tone. So what if its 120 dB! Theres my tone!
That and drummers bringing drum kits that take up 75% of the stage with racks of drums & 15 different cymbals and want every piece of their kit mic’ed.
Just like Tommy Lee & Neil Pert
How is it that Charlie Watts can drive the Stones playing stadiums with a 4 piece drum kit & 4 cymbals?
Or Ringo powerd the Beatles with a 4 piece kit and 3 cymbals…Oh that was talent not egos.

Ahh the joys of running live sound!
Cheers
PQ

 

[valvenator]

YEP!
Professional musicians understand that controlling your volume both on stage and to match it to the venue is job one!
Too loud stage volume causes feedback and a long list of other issues. (mic bleed & spill!)
The #1 complaint about live bands…Your too loud!

1st sign of weekend warriors and not pros
Big egos and little talent who over emphasize their equipment and that think… Oh look at how big my drum kit is or how awesome my full 100 watt Marshall stack is… in clubs that seat 75 patrons.
My biggest complaint with guitar players is I have to set my volume at __ to get my tone. So what if its 120 dB! Theres my tone!
That and drummers bringing drum kits that take up 75% of the stage with racks of drums & 15 different cymbals and want every piece of their kit mic’ed.
Just like Tommy Lee & Neil Pert
How is it that Charlie Watts can drive the Stones playing stadiums with a 4 piece drum kit & 4 cymbals?
Or Ringo powerd the Beatles with a 4 piece kit and 3 cymbals…Oh that was talent not egos.

Ahh the joys of running live sound!
Cheers
PQ

Some excellent points PQ. Mind if I add a few more?
How about the vocalists that cup the microphone in their hand and step on and lean into monitors 'cause that's the way it's done in videos, than look at the soundman like he's an idiot cause he can't fix the feedback.
Or the drummer that unloads cases of toms on the stage and after he's done cleaning the clutter and spent an hour "tuning" his set you realize all his toms are tuned the same.
Worse than the guitar player who cranks to get his tone is the one who plays it cranked clean, and to bass players who can't hear themselves cause they're standing right next to their amp: 'your legs don't have ears'.

BTW, I've also seen a few "Pros" that can't run sound:
If the band and the soundman are wearing ear plugs you're probably too loud.
If you;re playing for a 120 patrons and your drums and 100 watt marshall amp are mic'd you're too damn loud.
If the barmaid has to learn sign language and to read lips you're too damn #$%*! loud!

One of my favorite experiences was seeing a band for the first time with a musician friend of mine.
The drummer shows up with a tiny kit, the guitar player rolls in with a Marshall half stack, the PA was just a pair of monitors set on the floor leaning against the back wall, lead vocalist running the soundboard.
We looked at each other not knowing what to expect and obviously dreading the worst.
The setup took less than 15 minutes, no real sound check. Broke into Led Zep's 'Good Times, Bad Times' and honestly it was the most perfect mix I'd ever heard live.