input capacitor checker

KutzlerTrans

Jennie & I with Buddy and Barney.
After a recap on my 2325 changed the sound in a way i didn't care for, i decided to start over again.
Something i did sorta scooped the midrange warmth out of the unit. I did too many things at the same time. Big mistake. I thought pulling the brown and grey films out of the pre amp and mains were the main reason. The receiver sounds very good, but not at all as nice as it used to.
Since i cannot put into words the missing parts, i can only reverse engineer the sound i want back into it, so, just for the heck of it, i build this capacitor checker.
I soldered the thing in between the removed input cap connections.
It has a two pole /three throw switch. I figured i would place the stock grey 1uf in the center detent, giving me the ability to compare two different films against it.

Unfortunately i only have 4 or five different films to try and do not have any of the oils or caps Patfont recommended. But i have this thing set up with the ability to bypass it also with a dual rocker switch to compare bypass films.

I have some russian k40's k77's and a few other .01uf and smaller bypasses

For 1uf films i just have the panasonic and vishay 1822 and 1840

Disclaimer:
I understand that this experiment is just that. an experiment. Its just one part of a huge puzzle and i understand that altering something down the pike can totally screw up what i am "thinking" i am learning here.
sometime this week i'll plug this concoction in and have a few neighbors come over and vote on the best sounding unit.
For now i am going to tag it into the unit without pulling the pe01 out of the unit, and give each cap a day or two to break in, burn in or whatever the heck they need to do.
I am going to be doing a few tests on this 2325.

The next test is to lay to rest whether the capacitors used in a Power Supply will alter the sound. I have PW's in this unit, and the p/s i pulled out during its mid warmth loss alteration had Elna silmic 2 units
It is what it is. I will lay this question to rest as far as I am concerned. If someone is in doubt of my opinion of the results, i will send you my phone number and you can listen to what happens when i flip the switch. I myself will not believe it until i hear and see it.
 

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50 extra points and a gold star for doing the experiment. This is exactly the sort of thing that fascinates me, even though the more I refine my tests, the fewer component differences I can hear. IMO, there's so much anecdotal evidence of differences, it's still worth investigating. If you want a suite of measurements on any caps, PM me.
 
I used a standard rebuilt board. almost Identical to the leestereo 2325 rebuild. I got it hooked up today. i ended up installing the board with the bottom off.

It has the tendency to be an antenna, so i have to turn it down before moving stuff around. I had a few errors in the bypass wiring but i got around it.

Initial test before my high frequency hearing started to fade was the panasonics had more oomph'. The vishays sounded the least in the low end. the marantz greys started to sound like the vishays after a while and then i noticed the panasonics lost the edge on the oomph in the midrange.

The best combo for a while was the panasonics with the russian .1uf k77's
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271926539509?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

The problem is i only have 2 of them. i have a pile of the k40's .01ufhttp://www.ebay.com/itm/291601123819?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I am just getting started. The wires going to the switches are shielded wires, but i did not ground the shielding, so they are little antennas. get my hand anywhere near and they start humming.

I can say that there was a definite difference for a while, but by the end of the day it sounded the same to me, but i was ripping transmissions apart today and i didn't wear hearing protection 100% of the time, plus i was crankin the snot out of the 2325 all day.

My ears recover quick. I am lucky in that respect. I will get some more different capacitors coming to try. Patfont recommends Mundorf EVO Oils. He still has good hearing and i respect his judgement. I will get some of them coming.
I hope to get the neighbors to stop by later so i can get some other opinions.

I want to hear a difference, but as of tonight, it sounds the same to me. I know its my ears. As of now, I'll be wearing ear plugs for a few days;)
 
Thanks Conrad for the 50 points.:thumbsup:
Ok, i bought some 1uf k40 paper in oil russians and 2 of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/201006130210?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT

I also bought some 18v zeners and am going to do something Glen(EW) did with the BA316 that Conrad helped me understand.
I bought some of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400244736127?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
To try out.
Thanks again to Glen for sending me his Schematic today, for wiring it up, so i just have to put a little power supply together and tag it under there somewhere.

I have a few barely repairabl boards that will make a good case study for trying one of these opamps out.
 
Very Interesting tests that you are running, I look forward to hearing what your findings are and to see what I can apply to my 2325.

At the moment I found that the Panasonic films are big improvement over the greys. I used the Wima films in the same place in mine as well and I thought it sounded like it was full of film capacitors. I then put a Silmic 220uf 50V in the filter on the tone board and recapped PE01 with 220uf 35V in the filter and the replaced the other four with Silmic as well. The Silmics seemed to have helped helped in those positions but the sound still isn't where I think it should be, at least compared with other 2325s I've heard.
 
This is the pre amp i had in the unit that i did not like. I put a bunch of cog capacitors in, in place of the brown films. Its also the first time i used the 4.7 film instead of the green bipolar. I did not trace the circuit to find out what their job in life is.
 

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I don't think this is going to go as quick as i want. I think that in order to burn the caps in, i am going to have to build one of these things.
I also just had to buy a few more different russian units to try. Coming from bulgaria is going to take a week at least.
Check this thread out...

http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/capacitor-burn-in-device.534100/

Now for the latest news. There is a difference between the pannys and the greys
As i thought before i trashed my hearing, the panasonics have more guts to them.

But.. Here is the winner so far. It blows them all away.
The simple Jupiter Beeswax Capacitor. Without a doubt this thing had more all around presence.

I bought them a few years ago for a set of klipsch crossovers (Quartets)
I had bought 6 of them and have 2 sets left that just found.

Tomorrow i may think different, but tonight they are a winner.

And yes i know my soldering looks half'ass, but i'm not trying to make it look good for this get-up.
 

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It looks like you made a lot of other changes to your tone board - C0Gs back to the originals - as well as trying those Jupiter caps.

Did replacing the films at CE37 and CE38 with the ES make a difference?
 
I also bought some 18v zeners and am going to do something Glen(EW) did with the BA316 that Conrad helped me understand.
I bought some of these
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400244736127?_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649&ssPageName=STRK:MEBIDX:IT
To try out.
Thanks again to Glen for sending me his Schematic today, for wiring it up, so i just have to put a little power supply together and tag it under there somewhere.

.

Could you provide some more information about hot you will use these opamps - I can't find the thread? I've used them in phono stages, but nowhere in a Marantz. Thanks.
 
I had the other pre amp for the mar/pio project and used that one. I got carried away with this idea and really did not do a lot of comparing, but what i did compare by swapping boards a few times and plugging/unplugging amp, which was a pita made a difference, but not a big one. I can say that the panasonic 1uf's in the input did Not cause the issues noticed.
I altered the amp boards and need to locate a few unassholetracked ones to do a swap with.
The problem i noticed with all this cap testing is that the receiver starts to sound good to me. It will take a while before i figure this out.
What is very interesting is the fact that i was worried about getting 1uf's in the input, but found that i could 10uf's in there and it didn't make a big difference, especially if they have a bypass.
So... this opened i huge can of worms. I have about 10-15 caps i can now try. My favorite so far is this 8uf oil filled electric motor cap.
The panasonic sounds real good with these k40 .01uf bypasses and as long as the bypass is connected, all these caps start sounding the same to me. Without the bypass hooked up, there are noticeable differences but i am just not understanding what i am hearing good enough to explain it yet.
As it goes right now, there are about 5 caps that have ,my interest.

I am trying to get a trans rebuilt but keep playing with these capacitors. something has to give somewhere, so one i get all the ones i ordered that are not here yet, i will hopefully have a good idea about how to use the bypasses.

Mr Hirscwi, I really am not sure of a dedicated opamp page, but i had googled the ba316 and found the thread glen had, but unfortunately the pictures go lost when the server changed.
I thought i would fit one on a board, along with a filtered 18v supply and wire it into both channels, being one unit is a dual amp.

Here is glens info
2325_preamp_zps6vnuxwkq.jpg~original
 
Hey Jk, The sound differences i notice are only noticed on easy listening.
The pile of caps i have been rifling through are pretty similar to me except for a few of them. The Panasonic film, for instance, has a more robust sound to it than the stock grey film. The stock grey film is very clear, and nice sounding to me.

If there is one thing that i can say that will make every one of these capacitors sound better, is the adding of the bypass.
The bypass i have had the best results with is the russian (green) K77 .10uf
This little guy brings out the crisp highs and is a must for me because of my hearing.
I am using a set off HPM200's and a Set of Cerwin Vega D3 speakers. These two speakers are total opposite ends of the East/west coast sound. Thats why together they work so well for me.
Listening to the C/W for a while and switching to the 200's would make you think the 200 tweeters are bad. Until you listen to the 200's and switch to the C/W's, then it becomes apparent how nice the 200's actually sound. The C/Ws cut through the noise in the room. i guess thats why they are good rock speakers because Rock music attracts people, hopefully with their own beer, and now its party time, and who cares how nice the stereo sounds by now, cause were talking over each other and dancing.
With the combo of sound, its the perfect sound to me. I have tried a lot of speakers and the C/Ws just kick ass as an addition to the 200's. I have yet to finish my hpm100/dss9 upgrade, so the jury is still out.

Today i received the Mundorf mcap,

s-l400.jpg


As with all these caps, they are new and need time to seat the piston rings before judging them.
So my answer on the ""Caps is Caps"" question is that there are noticeable differences in some and adding the bypass really makes them all sound identical.
My ears are still messed up from yesterday and i am NOT the best person to judge these, but my customers are definitely noticing differences. Mainly to them it its "louder" with this,versus that.
I use Fleetwood Macs greatest hits on CD for judging these because of the excellent care they put into the production of their songs. There is a lot of added percussion, tamberines, keys, comb and other high pitch add ins that give the music a , "Wow" or in my case, customers never heard the stuff in these songs that this setup exposes. Phenomenal and Awesome is the usual reply after i force them to "hang around for a five minutes and listen to this".

So, is anyone going to notice big changes in their 2325 by putting in what i judge to be the best sounding,??? The answer is "probably not"
because of two things. One is that the stock grey film sounds great! The second is depending on what volume you listen to your stereo at or how good your speakers are.

As of right now, i can say that the panasonic with a bypass is hard to beat. Mainly because it fits right into the spot without running shielded wiring to the shielded caps. Just touching these caps will produce a loud hum. Outer foil end placement helps, but its a real problem that needs creative engineering to mount.

I still have some caps in transit to try, but i think i may, for now, rig up a power supply rube goldberg switch.
This is a question that really has my interest and i'm going to answer it.
 
I kid.... I like bypasses too.

But Marantz used mostly good films when they used films. A few cases they used electrolytics when a flim could have used.

Try a film bypass cap on the speaker relay.... Input to output .... Across the relay contacts. See if that does anything for you. :)
 
Nope not me laughing ..... I use bypasses on relays and...ready,you sitting down...speaker fuses.....

Contacts have loses ( technical term is "insertion lose" ) . It tends to affect higher freq more.

This is the reason some people don't like speaker relays and fuses. The bypass improves the loses.

Give it a try, it might work for you....might not.

Jk
 
This will be, thread of the month for me, Thanks, KutzlerTrans. Just doing my first 3 rebuilds,tubed.
 
Cool Drtool, thanks. Its a low budget thread, but its an honest one.
Jk, I will take you up on the 2 bypasses you mentioned tomorrow.

When i get a chance i will post pictures of the capacitors that made a noticeable improvement.
They are Oil caps. The panasonic gave them a run for its money.

The thing i can honestly say here is this,
If i and others can notice a difference in sound by just switching ONE capacitor, it brings total credibility to why changing the Complete set would have a more noticeable profound effect on the sound.

When i say that someone would probably not notice the change in sound by upgrading the input cap, it is because it is highly improbable that we could remember the old sound long enough to say its better or different.
It took us in a controlled environment, a few times of switching back from the stock grey film, to the new test cap, while keeping our ears peeled, to notice the change.
The grey cap was in the middle, the panasonic film was on the left and the "Test" cap was on the right.
The robust feeling the panasonic has, was fairly easy to notice. Most of the test films sounded exactly like the grey films.
Every motor start oil cap had a distinct robust change, as the panasonics. The ones that surprised me were these..
$_35.JPG

10uf 200v Russian mbgp.

The motor starts were these,
s-l400.jpg


The mundorf evo. and the Jupitor beeswax were very detailed and not far behind. Adding bypasses to these is as good as it gets.

It is only fair to say that most of these units were not formed or burned in. I have a junk stereo that i am going to hook up today with an 8ohm load and i am going to run groups these in series and parallel for a while. If i have extra sets of Virgin units, i will use them to compare whether break in effected any of them or not.
Today i am going to tag the 8uf motor starts to my 3hp baldor air compressor motor start capacitors.
It is what it is, they say.
 
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Well the thought that changing the power supply capacitor brands could have changed the sound in the 2325 has been settled.

I got all excited to do this test and when i finally flipped the switch.......It sounded exactly the same to me. I routinely switched from the PW's to the Silmics with no change that i could hear.
I plan to leave this gett'up hooked up for a few days and check other ears. The silmic PS was the experienced one that i had in the unit before putting the nichicon PW's in so its not a break in thing.
I left the PW unit in place to serve the speaker relay and tapped into the 14v 19v and 35v feeds to use as the center for the switch. the outer poles were fed back to each board, so as i switched, i could pick the board i wanted.

I really was hoping i could hear a difference, but with my ears, it just did not happen. I laid into it and it made no difference, they both sounded like i never flipped the switch, unlike when checking the signal path.
I cannot speak for other brands of caps, but these two sound the same and either one works as good as the other. Light throttle or full throttle... It makes no difference. If i do hear a difference in the next few days, i will make damn sure i post it, but for now, it is what it is., John
 

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