Is it an upgrade or just a load of cost/work for no benefit?

[neevo]

I've been satisfied with my setup for a while now, it sounds incredible and looks brilliant too. However! I am deep in to a tube preamp rebuild at the moment (documented on this site) and it should be a significant upgrade to my front end, making me think about what else is in the chain and whether I will shift the bottle neck.

I am not in the market for a new amp yet... although that will likely niggle me at the end

My question is around my turntable, a fully modified and upgraded Pioneer PL-518X



I love this table for its looks, the amount of work/love/attention I put in to the rebuild (also documented on this site) but I know its not a high end table and I'd love to understand if I can achieve a better sound on my budget with the expectation of having to rebuild it too.

My dream table would be a Thorens TD124 (or maybe a SOTA but I'm less keen on the look of those), but they're so far out of the budget even in "for parts" condition, so I've been toying with the idea of getting a Linn LP12 and restoring that instead. I am trying to find a parts unit for around $900 AUD and would look to add an arm on it too.

My questions are:

1. I'd only really be able to afford an older LP12, I know the newer ones are an improvement but they are also incredibly expensive. Would an older LP12 be a step up in sound quality?
2. Are there any other tables to consider that have a similar aesthetic that might fit the bill instead? I'd prefer to upgrade properly than make incremental steps
3. Are there any things to watch out for when buying a used/old Linn? It looks like parts are readily available which is good as I would look to buy a pretty sorry unit and fully restore/modify it

Should I stick or twist I suppose is the main theme?

 

[savatage1973]

1. I'd only really be able to afford an older LP12, I know the newer ones are an improvement but they are also incredibly expensive. Would an older LP12 be a step up in sound quality?
2. Are there any other tables to consider that have a similar aesthetic that might fit the bill instead? I'd prefer to upgrade properly than make incremental steps
3. Are there any things to watch out for when buying a used/old Linn? It looks like parts are readily available which is good as I would look to buy a pretty sorry unit and fully restore/modify it

OK--let me preface this with the fact that I own a Linn LP12--so I am a Linn owner--not a Linn basher. I bought mine new in 1985 and have gone through (at this point) over 30 years of "upgrades". Including the purchase price, cost of upgrades, current cart and phono pre, I have a hair over $5K wrapped up in my "baby".

Linns (and SOTAs, for that matter) are just plain expensive. A brand new Linn is (in my book, at least) insanely priced, and even beat-up used ones can border on downright ridiculous.

You already have a great-looking, fully-restored and very competent table. If I were you, I'd be shopping carts and perhaps a phono preamp or SUT, rather than ditching the table for another project--but that is just me--and this is coming from a Linn owner.

If you do decide to go the Linn route, I will tell you that the suspension upgrade is probably the most "bang for the buck" investment that you can make, followed by the choice of arm.

Good Luck!!!

 

[bobins08]

Wow on the used Linn prices. My buddy @sturgus picked up a working and well cared for LP12 for well under $1000 right here in town. I would keep looking, maybe try Barter Town.

Back to your system... you don’t say what speakers, amp or cartridge you have. Looks like LS 50’s? Big room, little room, subs or no subs? Do the speakers give you the bass, slam, sound stage that you want?

Since you are restoring a tube preamp I assume you will make the phonostage excel and you are happy with the amp.

I look at two things first:

1. Find speakers you like
2. Match your arm to a really nice cartridge and stylus.

Good luck in your journey and great job on the 518.

 

[savatage1973]

My buddy @sturgus picked up a working and well cared for LP12 for well under $1000 right here in town.

That is indeed quite a deal, and far below what they typically are going for these days.

 

[shelly_d]

I'm not a Linn owner. I usually look at Vinylengine for the specs on a question like this. Unfortunately, there were no specs on the Linn on the web site. It did have specs on your Pioneer however and at -73 dB rumble and .03% wow and flutter it is a very fine performer indeed. Based upon those specs and the comments of savatage1973 on the price/performance of Linn turntables, I would agree with his assessment of where you are and what you should be looking at for upgrades. Look at a fine cartridge that is well matched to the Pioneer arm, make sure the phono signal path is as quiet as you can make it and enjoy the music.

Shelly_D

 

[Gibsonian]

Overkill with TT isolation, great sounding cart that matches arm with a nice SUT.

 

[neevo]

I’m running:

1. Ortofon 2M Bronze/Denon DL110 both on Jelco HS25 headshells (Bronze is the main cartridge though)
2. Twin sealed 10” subs
3. miniDSP for mains and individual subs (setup with UMIK-1)
4. Kenwood KA8100
5. Modified Little Bear T10 Phono Preamp
6. All floors in my house are concrete so great isolation.

I know the preamp is a weak point hence why I’m rebuilding one to replace it and it will hopefully be a significant step up as it’s a Mcintosh C20.

I love the setup and it sounds unbelievable but I have the itch to get a proper table and see if there’s more improvement to be had in my vinyl playback. Maybe I’m being too critical of the Pioneer as it’s very capable. I just keep hearing about the quality a top notch table can provide with the Sota threads etc.

 

[savatage1973]

I have the itch to get a proper table

IMO, you already have a "proper" table with the Pioneer. Are there arguably "better" decks out there?--most certainly, but I think you are selling the Pioneer a little "short", in terms of its capabilities. What I see as your "weaknesses" are the carts and phono pre.

With my Linn (heavily upgraded in all respects), I am running a Dynavector 23K RS (retipped by SoundSmith with a ruby cantilever and nude line contact diamond) and a heavily upgraded/modded Jolida JD9 phono pre (Clarity caps, WIMA bypass caps, BB opamps, Baldwin "greenies"--Sylvania long plate 12AX7 tubes, and Dynamat damping). The arm is a Linn Ittok LVII wired with Cardas Silver Litz wire, and the table has Cardas Silver RCA output cables. My other two "daily driver" tables are a pair of Dual CS5000's--one with an AT 440MLb and the other with a Denon 103R (w/matching Denon SUT) for carts.

Don't get me wrong--I love my Linn and it is an exceptional table, but in terms of "bang for the buck" vs what I have invested in it, I don't know if I'd go that route again (and the prices are only going up for the table and upgrades). I have played with my share of SOTAs and even a few Clear Audio tables, and wouldn't mind owning one of those, but (for now) I just stick with my Duals and my Linn, since they do what I need them to do, and do it (IMO) pretty well.

If I were you (and working on a budget--which we all are), I'd be shopping LOMC carts and SUTs, and maybe rewire the tonearm/headshells for what you already have, rather than starting over. Again--this is coming from a very happy/satisfied Linn owner. There are countless readily available and well-documented upgrades/mods for the LP12, but you can rapidly turn it into a bottomless "money pit" if you are not careful.

Proceed as you wish (it's your money and time), but I'd stick with what you have and maybe throw a few more bucks into it, rather than attempting a total "upgrade"--but, again, that is just me.

Good Luck!!!

 

[Grenadeslio]

Similar design but much more affordable, the AR XA, highly modified it's competitive with much more expensive decks. That said, my upper tier Kenwood's have my XA sitting the bench. As others have mentioned that Pioneer deck is no slouch, my father in law had one, on his passing it was given to me. It was nice but the little AR was just that much better so I moved it on. I should add, my Completely stock AR also beat out my Thorens.

Pictures of my Kennys for a reference.

 

[neevo]

@savatage1973 forgot to mention I’ve already required the table. Litz wire in the tonearm and Van Damme to the RCA’s on the back.

Sounds like I should sit back and give the Pioneer more time. I’ll stop the search for the moment and focus on getting the Mac finished and see if that’s the difference I’m looking for.

 

[try1256]

To answer just the question in the title of the post. I just went from a fully restored and modified Thorens TD-160 to a Sota Star. I moved the arm and cart, an SME M2-9 and Soundsmith Aida, from the Thorens to the Sota. The Thorens is a very good sounding table but the improvement in the total sound of my system is off the charts with the Sota. Every aspect of the playback improved. So, yes improving your table will improve the sound of your system and provide tremendous benifit and enjoyment. That improvement does come at a cost. Linn's are similar to Thorens in their design and it does take some effort to get the suspension in proper adjustment to optimize playback. Not so with the Sota. Very easy to get the suspension optimized and once it is, it doesn't require continuous tweeking. I understand that Sota and Linn availability and pricing is probably different in Australia than it is here in the states, but it would be worth the wait to get a good example of either rather than get a beater that needs a lot. Sota tables can be upgraded and repair at the factory but it would have to be shipped here which I am sure would be costly as well. Here are the two tables side by side. Hope this helps.

 

[savatage1973]

@savatage1973Sounds like I should sit back and give the Pioneer more time. I’ll stop the search for the moment and focus on getting the Mac finished and see if that’s the difference I’m looking for.

I think that is a wise decision. I'm certainly not knocking Linn (I own one), and I'd own a SOTA if one turned up at a decent price in decent shape, but you have a good table already--"if it ain't broke, don't fix it". You are already working with a good solid table. Maybe a few more "tweaks" and you might be really surprised.

 

[Gibsonian]

It's not clear what you are looking for neevo to me since you are saying that your system sounds amazing.

Has your Kenwood been restored or is stock or near stock? If not fully restored you are missing some goodness there for certain.

Looking at your equipment list the weakest links for me would be a non-restored Kenny, your cart, and don't know enough about your phono stage to comment on that. I am assuming it outperforms the phono stage in the Kenwood.

Getting a TT that allows different arms to be placed on the table is pretty awesome, so I understand wanting to scratch that itch.

 

[neevo]

@Gibsonian the Kenwood has been fully restored so it’s working beautifully. There’s nothing in my system that hasn’t been optimised I don’t think other than speaker cables).

The main thing I’m chasing is some noise on the phono stage and the turntable doesn’t always sound exciting (tough thing to describe).

I suspect some of it comes from the phono preamp (hence why I’m restoring the Mcintosh Preamp to replace it). So I should really get the Mac finished and evaluate after that as it might cure everything.

 

[Gibsonian]

Good to hear you're looking at all the pieces. Mentioned cart cause an MC and an SUT was a nice surprise for me. You heading in the right direction.

 

[KentTeffeteller]

I've been satisfied with my setup for a while now, it sounds incredible and looks brilliant too. However! I am deep in to a tube preamp rebuild at the moment (documented on this site) and it should be a significant upgrade to my front end, making me think about what else is in the chain and whether I will shift the bottle neck.

I am not in the market for a new amp yet... although that will likely niggle me at the end

My question is around my turntable, a fully modified and upgraded Pioneer PL-518X

View attachment 1302802

I love this table for its looks, the amount of work/love/attention I put in to the rebuild (also documented on this site) but I know its not a high end table and I'd love to understand if I can achieve a better sound on my budget with the expectation of having to rebuild it too.

My dream table would be a Thorens TD124 (or maybe a SOTA but I'm less keen on the look of those), but they're so far out of the budget even in "for parts" condition, so I've been toying with the idea of getting a Linn LP12 and restoring that instead. I am trying to find a parts unit for around $900 AUD and would look to add an arm on it too.

My questions are:

1. I'd only really be able to afford an older LP12, I know the newer ones are an improvement but they are also incredibly expensive. Would an older LP12 be a step up in sound quality?
2. Are there any other tables to consider that have a similar aesthetic that might fit the bill instead? I'd prefer to upgrade properly than make incremental steps
3. Are there any things to watch out for when buying a used/old Linn? It looks like parts are readily available which is good as I would look to buy a pretty sorry unit and fully restore/modify it

Should I stick or twist I suppose is the main theme?

You have a nice, reliable, unfussy, musical, maintainable turntable. It's good enough for me to have owned two of them (and the second one I am daily driving right now). Your plinth upgrade with new woodwork is really beautiful, makes my nicely preserved original plinth look cheap. I have a trained ear, I know quality record reproduction when I hear it, I know accurate record reproduction when I hear it. I hear no rumble, no waver. I hear nothing added or subtracted. What I hear is my music, accurately rendered without color or faults.

Linn LP-12 turntables are fussy to set up (especially without knowing suspended turntable setup niceties). And many older Linns will likely need attention and knowledgeable setup and maintenance. And Linn spare parts can be expensive sometimes. If you have a friendly dealer, who is helpful and really knows the LP-12 they can be nice. And with that, maybe you can get used parts yanked off of them when owners wanted upgrades. I was several states away from a dealer, or knowledge. I got mine running (and had to build a similar replacement designed around obtainable parts for a Valhalla upgrade). A visitor waved too much money at me, and it wasn't for me better enough to keep. I don't think I want another one either, especially at today's prices.

A Thorens TD 150 or TD 160 with a SME 3009 arm is for me as good or better, less finicky to maintain, and parts plenty enough available. To quote the Soul singer, Joe Tex, "Hold On To What You've Got". Satisfy yourself with a new headshell and a cartridge you love that you don't own. Best wishes, a Van Load of Karma to you, and enjoyable vinyl playback. You're a friend, I also like to stay a friend. I like long lived, solid, good relations, even on forums where we've never physically met before.