Is the lack of a DAC in my system my weakest link?

[KeninDC]

Great DAC advice in this thread. Some of these guys know their DACs, both budget and beyond. As for the Baby Advents, I am not a fan. Not bad, but kinda dull (but I think you know that).

Good luck and don't forget it is your money even though we love to help you spend it.

 

[rs732]

Have you tried one? The newer DACs make a huge difference, even the inexpensive ones. If he likes his speakers, that is all that matters.

Yes,I've tried a handful of these budget DAC's. I found most of them to be transparent,and that's not a bad thing. However,a standalone DAC did not make or break my system. I ended up keeping the Topping D30 because it has the optical,coaxial,& usb feature. Other than that this DAC literally does nothing for my system beside do what I need it to do and that is give me a clean conversion of digital to analogue at the max rate that it can handle.

 

[onesojourner]

I am just answering your original question. You currently have one set of functional speakers. Baby Advent II's are surprisingly decent sounding speakers (i pick them up for friends all the time). However,they're are not doing that heathkit any justice. I imagine you would be more satisfied with the results in investing in upgrading your speakers than a budget DAC.

I also have the following:
Advent Loudspeaker- refoamed and recapped, Exteriors still need attention

These are rolling right now in another system.

 

[slimecity]

I ended up keeping the Topping D30

I also got one of these to run from my Macbook Pro.

Boy did I find out that my Mac DAC was the weakest link in my system for sure. I wasnt convinced until I tried it - totally transformed the sound.

 

[onesojourner]

I heard the dac in a Mac is pretty good so that is pretty good recommendation.

 

[Alobar]

My experience with my own PC, a rather inexpensive HP desktop is that just running a DAC from it was probably an improvement (Never have tried the sound card), but also presented several issues The RF that PC generates, with all the spinning fans, disks, wireless this and that created background noise, stutter, playing ever so slightly too fast, as well as cutting out in rapid succession so fast that I didn't notice it for the first 20 seconds.. Always a reboot would restore most of the issues into non issues except the faint buzzing, that was always there unless I ran the PC in power saver mode.

It wasn't until I got my music player off the PC and onto its own ethernet connected computer (in my case it was a Raspberry Pi3b) along with JRiver pre-installed on a micro SD card (about $100 total) did my music really start to shine. Not sure about the on board DAC on the Raspberry, but you could try it out for a while.. The RPi is dead quiet with no moving parts and wireless not seemingly being an issue. Windows itself has really sucked for being a music server IME.

 

[gvl]

Better DACs feature galvanic isolation on USB (and Coax for that matter) ports that solve PC noise issues.

 

[shelly_d]

Thanks for the information. I am not familiar with SNR. I am reading up on it now. I appreciate you taking the time!

Like I said, it has been a long time since I've done the calculations but I can now offer a bit of perspective. With the computer (at -95 dB S/N) feeding your preamp, also at -95 dB S/N your signal to the power amp is at -92 dB S/N. This is because noise is additive. Using your existing preamp you cannot achieve any better then the -95 dB of the preamp itself. Now, if you improve the noise level of the source, say to a S/N level of -110 dB, it still has to pass through the preamp at it's -95 dB. What you get out of that combination is -93.6 dB, or an improvement of 1.6 dB reduction in noise.

I am not trying to say it is not worth it. That small a reduction in noise might be perceived as sounding a bit cleaner and clearer, certainly an improvement if noticed. I am trying to put the improvement, if any, into perspective to allow you to judge for yourself if it is worth it.

Good Luck

Shelly_D

 

[onesojourner]

Thanks that puts this into perspective for me.

 

[Alobar]

Better DACs feature galvanic isolation on USB (and Coax for that matter) ports that solve PC noise issues.

And how much do galvanically isolated DACs cost? New please, I don't do the bay. I am not entirely convinced that all the problems were from RF. How could that make it play just slightly too fast?
I am all in for $350 with my modi multi bit and RPi3 and jriver and as far as I know I'm isolated from the PC via the ethernet cable.
Anyway I'm happy with what I have now and the little rpi3 is always just a click away from playing music as I keep it and the dac on 24/7. Not going chasing rabbits for potentially better sound as there are other places on my system that can benefit more.

 

[gvl]

The RPI is a computer, it can be noisy too. I had noisy PCs and quiet ones too. Matter of luck. If not a galvanically isolated DAC you could try an inline isolator : https://hifimediy.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=122

 

[Putterman]

Over the years I have accumulated several pieces of what I consider decent stereo equipment. I am constantly swapping out this or that and I will continue to collect and tweak.

Here is my current setup before I got it all hooked up:
Heathkit AA-1600, AP-1600, refoamed Baby Advent ii's

I also have the following:
Advent Loudspeaker- refoamed and recapped, Exteriors still need attention
Electrostatic - pristine exterior need foam
Genesis - need foam
Jensons - pulled from console, need boxes
I also have the SS amp from the console that I plan to play around with.


My source is my Windows 10 Machine running JRiver. I am in the process of converting my library to flac. I am just using the 3.5mm out from the machine (Realtek ALC892). Would I benefit from a DAC? I don't have money burning a whole in my pocket but if I can improve my setup by tossing $50-$100 at it I can swing that. I don't have any complaints with my setup, I just want to sneak up on "better".

What is the next logical upgrade for this system? I am currently moving into a slightly bigger space, 12'x13' with 9' ceilings.

My feeling is that you'll get a lot more bang for the buck by ordering refoam kits for the Genesis and electrostatic? (Technically electrostatics don't have surrounds so I'm assuming it's a hybrid with a conventional woofer). Those kits will run you in the $50 to $100 range likely closer to $50. Also if you don't like them, you could always sell them and recoup you investment and them some which would pay for better DAC's assuming you need them.

P.S. What are the models of the Genesis and electrostatic speakers as well as the Jensen (sic) drivers pulled form the console. Also places like Parts Express sell boxes that might work for the Jensens.

 

[Alobar]

The RPI is a computer, it can be noisy too. I had noisy PCs and quiet ones too. Matter of luck. If not a galvanically isolated DAC you could try an inline isolator : https://hifimediy.com/index.php?route=product/product&product_id=122

Before I bought the RPi I had one of these that worked pretty well . Really cleaned up most of the problems I was having with my Win10 machine. Would this qualify as an isolator?
Schiit Wyrd
But after I bought the JRiver ID for the RPi and went with that, now seem to have no need for the Wyrd..

 

[gvl]

I don't believe Wyrd provides full isolation, but it can help with some issues. It didn't help me at the time I was using a noisy PC.

 

[onesojourner]

My feeling is that you'll get a lot more bang for the buck by ordering refoam kits for the Genesis and electrostatic? (Technically electrostatics don't have surrounds so I'm assuming it's a hybrid with a conventional woofer). Those kits will run you in the $50 to $100 range likely closer to $50. Also if you don't like them, you could always sell them and recoup you investment and them some which would pay for better DAC's assuming you need them.

P.S. What are the models of the Genesis and electrostatic speakers as well as the Jensen (sic) drivers pulled form the console. Also places like Parts Express sell boxes that might work for the Jensens.

I don't have the info on the genesis just yet. I did snap a picture of the back, posted below. As soon as they are I will be running up to my local speaker supply store and getting new foam for them.




Here is an add for the electrostatics:



And here are a few more of the Jenson's
https://i.imgur.com/2GY4nzY.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/JyRHQwx.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/bEnCTsW.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/cNnyqHe.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/RfCabD6.jpg

 

[E-Stat]

I have an alternative solution for a modest cost: buy an aftermarket sound card for your PC. I use an M Audio Audiophile 2496 for the office PC which is actually pretty decent and uses 5532 op amps. You can buy them used for a song on Ebay. It uses standard RCA jacks for left and right output.

And yes, Advents can definitely reveal differences with better external DACs. I just recently upgraded a Music Hall DAC 25.3 with discrete op amps which added a nice level of refinement. Sourced by a Raspberry Pi3 / Allo DigiOne digital player driving a Hypex amplifier and modifed New Advents.

 

[daleeper]

I believe I would get your other speakers up and running first, and evaluate the keepers, then consider the dac, although I would keep an eye out for a good deal, whether massdrop or the 'bay (a favorite of mine). I had electrical noise coming through my desktop pc onboard soundcard, and going with a usb dac cleared that issue up. I have used an inexpensive 10 dollar dac picked up at a package damage store, and moved up to a Modi, and now my current Modi 2, all of them were better than the pc analog output, and all cost less than 50 dollars purchased used.

You mention moving to a bigger space, and getting the other speakers a chance in the new space should be an upgrade, probably best money spent, at least on the larger Advents, and the Genesis. Wondering if an open baffle would suit the Jensen drivers. Don't forget to play with speaker placement and stands.

Others have mentioned pc noise, and it got tracked to the electronic side coming through, but the physical noise of the cooling fan noise of the pc (you didn't mention laptop or desktop) can be an issue that I have ignored that I really should address in my own desktop/office system. I have speaker upgrade-itis, but really the ambient noise I have in the space is more of a problem than the equipment I am running. Something for you to consider.

 

[GChief]

Just remember, digital data is just digital data. There is no magical fairy dust built into digital music files (many audiophiles think so).

Lies all lies

 

[Alobar]

I use three different pc's: 2 mini-pc's and a desktop. Besides the fan sound (and that is external noise not in the USB circuit), I do not get any noise through the USB port. Quality makes up for quantity. Much of the lauded noise was from USB 1.0 and synchronous mode. That was done away with in USB 2.0. People assume much but know little.

Just remember, digital data is just digital data. There is no magical fairy dust built into digital music files (many audiophiles think so).

Tell me, Have you experienced any of the following issues while playing music from a computer?
Music playing slightly too fast.
Music cutting out very rapidly, almost unnoticeable before realizing after a short time.
Buzzing sounds timed to the hd light flickering.
Steady buzzing while computer is running without power saver switched on (buzzing stops instantly when power saving mode is initiated.
Most of these issues would resolve when the computer was rebooted except for the background buzzing.
I was running Windows 10 with jriver and a schiit modi and USB 2.0. All issues went way entirely when same dac was playing from the raspberry.

I'm perfectly willing to get educated here, I know I do assume much and know little at times especially about computers. Tell me where these issues were coming from if not noisy us buss? I was not imagining it, ferry dust or not.

 

[gvl]

Tell me, Have you experienced any of the following issues while playing music from a computer?
Music playing slightly too fast.
Music cutting out very rapidly, almost unnoticeable before realizing after a short time.
Buzzing sounds timed to the hd light flickering.
Steady buzzing while computer is running without power saver switched on (buzzing stops instantly when power saving mode is initiated.
Most of these issues would resolve when the computer was rebooted except for the background buzzing.
I was running Windows 10 with jriver and a schiit modi and USB 2.0. All issues went way entirely when same dac was playing from the raspberry.

I'm perfectly willing to get educated here, I know I do assume much and know little at times especially about computers. Tell me where these issues were coming from if not noisy us buss? I was not imagining it, ferry dust or not.

Schiit Eitr would have probably fixed these issues, while improving the sound at the same time. Many were unhappy with the original Schiit USB inputs, there was a reason they developed Gen 5 after all.