It looks like the "straight wire with gain" theory is being questioned

A passive device can't create gain, if "gain" means amplification of a signal.

Gain can be positive or negative. Even an active preamplifier, which has a powered amplifier, can output a signal having negative gain, that is, attenuate the input signal.

I would venture to say that every preamp uses negative gain. I know if I were to apply the input signal from some of my non-TT sources directly to my amp, I would blow my speakers.
 
I use a passive with a relay activated selector. it also has an extra pass through output bipassing the selector and volume control. I use the pass through for my headphone amp. the headphone amp has a set of rca outs that I use to drive another amp. Most of my other systems do have active tone contols. I tend not to need them unless the recording is lacking. I'm kinda liking the idea of the Loki in my main system since it has a bipass switch. The small footprint is also a plus for me. Tone control when you need it. It's just that simple. Having the right speakers to begin with is important also.
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Gain can be positive or negative. Even an active preamplifier, which has a powered amplifier, can output a signal having negative gain, that is, attenuate the input signal.

I would venture to say that every preamp uses negative gain. I know if I were to apply the input signal from some of my non-TT sources directly to my amp, I would blow my speakers.
Attenuation, not negative gain. Line level output from a source may be sufficient to drive a power amp to full output without an active line preamplifier, in which cases an in line attenuator, a passive level control, is all that is required.
 
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Attenuation, not negative gain. Line level output from a source may be sufficient to drive a power amp to full output without an active line preamplifier, in which cases an in line attenuator, a passive level control is all that is required.

Not often. The voltage may be sufficient, but the source output impedance may be too high, especially when hanging off a passive attenuator. Achieving a remotely flat response with a typical passive attenuator into a equally typical 20k input impedance power amp is impossible. HF roll-off is inevitable.

Gain can be positive or negative. Even an active preamplifier, which has a powered amplifier, can output a signal having negative gain, that is, attenuate the input signal.

I would venture to say that every preamp uses negative gain. I know if I were to apply the input signal from some of my non-TT sources directly to my amp, I would blow my speakers.

This is correct. All active preamplifiers can output a negative gain figure. People may think they are attenuating as a whole, but internally, they are amplifying, then attenuating, bufering and produce an output amplitude that appears lower than the original source amplitude.

However, they offer a phenomenally low output impedance due to the active buffer stage and can achieve ruler flat responses in a typical system. This is something passive attenuators simply cannot do.
 
Naturally, the user's inferior equipment will mask any bad things it does to the signal. Of course, personal preference, room interaction or a deficient recording couldn't have anything to do with it, could it?

I don't think inferior is the right word to use here. Lots of us have less than ideal conditions. I have a room full of junk here. My pro 31 band GEQ is a bit noisy. If I turn it all the way up, I can hear the hash. But at that level, I don't want to be in the room, plus massive clipping is no fun either. Keep in mind I'm for this unit, but I seriously doubt you'll see this in a $200K+ system. At this price level I would expect no need for outside processing (I include room/room treatments as part of a system at that level).

OK, so we have a few folks here that have purchased one. Do the test. Switch to a non-noisy input, like a CD player. With no source playing, turn on the tone box and turn the volume to full. Hear any extra noise? Now turn it down, hit bypass and swing the volume to full again. Is there any difference? Inquiring minds want to know.
 
I don't think inferior is the right word to use here. Lots of us have less than ideal conditions. I have a room full of junk here. My pro 31 band GEQ is a bit noisy. If I turn it all the way up, I can hear the hash. But at that level, I don't want to be in the room, plus massive clipping is no fun either. Keep in mind I'm for this unit, but I seriously doubt you'll see this in a $200K+ system. At this price level I would expect no need for outside processing (I include room/room treatments as part of a system at that level).

OK, so we have a few folks here that have purchased one. Do the test. Switch to a non-noisy input, like a CD player. With no source playing, turn on the tone box and turn the volume to full. Hear any extra noise? Now turn it down, hit bypass and swing the volume to full again. Is there any difference? Inquiring minds want to know.
Yes, we do!
 
Not often. The voltage may be sufficient, but the source output impedance may be too high, especially when hanging off a passive attenuator. Achieving a remotely flat response with a typical passive attenuator into a equally typical 20k input impedance power amp is impossible. HF roll-off is inevitable.



This is correct. All active preamplifiers can output a negative gain figure. People may think they are attenuating as a whole, but internally, they are amplifying, then attenuating, bufering and produce an output amplitude that appears lower than the original source amplitude.

However, they offer a phenomenally low output impedance due to the active buffer stage and can achieve ruler flat responses in a typical system. This is something passive attenuators simply cannot do.
Corey Greenberg, while at Stereophile, came up with a reasonably transparent buffered level controller, based on the BUF-01 device ca 1990. I'd like to find one of the advanced versions for sale. My Conrad Johnson Motif MC-9 uses just a pair of FETs per channel to provide a modest gain stage into a source follower line driver.
My passive is an input selector Noble 10k black cube switch point pot.
I'd like to think that any modern solid state line source could drive a 1k loading, that would make things much easier.
 
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Speaking of transformers - the Hydraulic Jack. On one end you have a small force (voltage) and great movement (current). On the other end you have a great force (voltage) and small movement (current). In terms of direction (polarity) you can think of both the force and movement (voltage and current) as being "transformed" by a "negative" gain.

The force and movement (voltage and current) of your hand is downward, but the direction of the transformed force and movement (voltage and current) is upward (inverted). So setting aside the logarithms of numbers greater than or less than 1.0 - you can still have a "negative" gain with an absolute value greater than 1.0, and a "positive" gain with an absolute value less than 1.0.

OK - that's tonight's bedtime story. Good night.
 
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