It looks like the "straight wire with gain" theory is being questioned

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by the skipper, Dec 30, 2017.

  1. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Speaking of transformers - the Hydraulic Jack. On one end you have a small force (voltage) and great movement (current). On the other end you have a great force (voltage) and small movement (current). In terms of direction (polarity) you can think of both the force and movement (voltage and current) as being "transformed" by a "negative" gain.

    The force and movement (voltage and current) of your hand is downward, but the direction of the transformed force and movement (voltage and current) is upward (inverted). So setting aside the logarithms of numbers greater than or less than 1.0 - you can still have a "negative" gain with an absolute value greater than 1.0, and a "positive" gain with an absolute value less than 1.0.

    OK - that's tonight's bedtime story. Good night.
     
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  2. DEAFASABAT

    DEAFASABAT Active Member

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    When less is not more

    Just curious if those looking down their noses at EQ listen only to source material that was tracked, mixed, and mastered without the use of EQ? My guess is no.

    Seems that EQ in home gear is a whipping boy to be blamed for bad sound.

    I'll bet a properly administered A/B test of gear with and without EQ "in" would have them looking elsewhere.
     
  3. DEAFASABAT

    DEAFASABAT Active Member

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    If you like Glen Frey After Hours, get Born to be Blue by Steve Miller. It's another great album of Jazz standards performed, recorded, and mastered exquisitely. You'll be surprised that Steve could sing this well, but he did.

    There are too many (IMO that's more than one) CDs produced (manufactured and distributed) that not only suffer from bad mastering, but also from the inability to obtain quality copies of the master tapes. In this case it's game over when the starting whistle is blown.
     
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  4. whoaru99

    whoaru99 Epic Member

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    Is the implication you agree or disagree that gain is possible with a TVC?
     
  5. JoeESP9

    JoeESP9 ESL's & tubes since 83

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  6. awillia6

    awillia6 Well-Known Member

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    "Born 2B Blue" is the title. See here.
     
  7. I LIKE MUSIC

    I LIKE MUSIC Super Member

    Some general information.

    This is another case of the application of the definition of a term.

    The technical term for a device’s output/input magnitude ratio is gain. As a ratio of equal units (power out / power in, voltage out / voltage in, or current out / current in). Note that there is more than one type of gain and to be correct, one should specify the type of gain, power. voltage or current.

    In a passive transformer you can have voltage gain or current gain, but not both at the same time because that would be power gain and a passive device can't have power gain

    Transformers change impedance, from low to high or high to low or in some cases not at all as in an isolation transformer (leaving out RF transformers used in tuned circuits).

    It is the change in impedance (based on the turns ration) that results in the difference in voltage, input to output, larger or smaller.

    Just as an example, lets say the source needs to see a 1000 Ohm load and what it is going to drive needs to be driven by a 1000 Ohms, a transformer in this case will not be able to increase the voltage (gain).

    In the case of a transformer volume control, it can make the output voltage greater than the input voltage because the source impedance is smaller than the output impedance.

    If a passive transformer could amplify a signal, then we could connect a phono cartridge to the input of a passive transformer and connect the output of the transformer to our speakers and have music (leaving aside RIAA EQ).

    If you want to be correct you should say that a passive transformer can have voltage gain or it can have current gain, again due to the difference in impedance, input to output, but it can not have both (power gain) at the same time. This would eliminate the debate.

    In our hobby this distinction, much like the distinction between polarity and phase, is commonly ignored. But it is quite important to consider when designing a circuit.
     
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  8. whoaru99

    whoaru99 Epic Member

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    The fault then, if any, was my presumption it was understood to be voltage gain in the context of this discussion, not specifying voltage gain. Considering though, the nature of the source to "preamp" and "preamp" to amplifier connections are, in consumer audio gear, generally of the high impedance/voltage bridge type, rather than impedance matched/power transfer type of deal. Hopefully that makes it not too egregious. :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 3, 2018
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  9. awillia6

    awillia6 Well-Known Member

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    Egregiosity, like beauty and musicality, is in the eyes and ears of the beholder. If you feel you haven't transgressed, then who's to say differently? Everyone has their own sense of right and wrong, and another word for standards imposed by others on people is tyranny. Your independence should be applauded, not condemned. Go whoaru99!
     
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  10. I LIKE MUSIC

    I LIKE MUSIC Super Member

    It is all about technical standards. Using technical standards is far, far from tyranny. If this were the case then things like Ohm's law would be the ultimate tyranny (electronic that is).

    To be clear, I mean no disrespect to anyone. But there are a lot of readers of AK that are trying to learn the basics and being specific in the use of terminology can make this easier.

    As an example, a device requires a .25 amp fuse and a person says because of their opinion of right and wrong that a 15 amp fuse would be okay to use.
     
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  11. awillia6

    awillia6 Well-Known Member

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    Your fuse example is entirely wrong. Those of us with ears know you're gonna need a bypass cap to smooth the flow...
     
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  12. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I agree if it's true.
     
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  13. I LIKE MUSIC

    I LIKE MUSIC Super Member

    I am not going to go farther off topic. Since there are almost 2000 hits on this thread and it is possible that some would be interested in the basics to help them grow their technical knowledge. That was the intent of my post about gain. It was my hope that it would help clear up the discussion and the discussion could return the its original intent.

    In my case I always use tone controls, EQ (analog and digital) and DSP except when I don't. And it always sound better, except when it does not.
     
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  14. awillia6

    awillia6 Well-Known Member

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    NOW you're back in the fold. Baa.
     

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