Klipsch R28F Hyper-Drive Crossover Replacement Project

Moray,
You beat me to it. While I don't have the quality of crossover like SET12 has been describing, I feel that the engineering and parts quality that were built into my speakers by Klipsch for their price point was excellent. As with most things, there are always ways to improve on a factory design, per the posts by SET12 and Moray here and in multiple other threads.

I'm use to being entertained by some very expensive products. Though nowadays I can no longer afford them. So I'm left to DIYing.

I wish it were that easy for Manufactures to build the performance that I now have but as Moray below has pointed out It's just simple economics. And not a lot of people really care that much. I really thank people like Steen Duelund who spent most of his life devoted to high performance parts. He often had more money tied up into his crossovers than what the actual drivers cost.

The beauty of these R-28F's is that the networks are relatively simple and the parts values are small. So its very cool when these R-28F's and $500 in parts are competing against $2500 in parts for my Forte's.

You don't live to far from me so your welcome for a visit, and who knows the experience could change your whole outlook.



if they (the manufacturers) spent this kind of money on network parts) even with volume discounts you could not aford to buy the speakers due to the increase in cost. It's just simple economics. That's why aftermarket upgrade make such good sense. Give the makers a break they have to turn a profit or they could not exist. You get exactly what you pay for and Klipsch do a good job of delivering the goods at any price point you care to choose. They do a very good job of finding the right balance to deliver the goods at an affordable price in my estimation. Remember you see just the end product and then do a mental parts count and cost but you don't see the R&D that goes into products nor the volume purchases that are necessary to get the prices down nor the huge overheads and salaries. It all adds up very quickly.

I forgot to mention the cost of advertising. It's not just about letting you know these products exist and where to find them etc. It's all about creating an image that fits with your lifestyle or the lifestyle that you aspire to. At the end of the day the margins are not fat. Klipsch offer you the opportunity to purchase very good quality components which I find respond very well to some TLC in the form of modification. You can get better components in the upper range of say JBL or EV but they cost a lot more to begin with and that's because they were better engineered and built and that's why they cost more and that's why there is usually a lot less to modify on them because it mostly done to begin with. Klipsch are that nice balance whether you buy them and leave them stock or you buy them and modify them they are still great value. Klipsch were very well engineered to provide very good value as well as very good sound.

Very well said Moray!

I think the thing to understand for DIYing is the return value. For every dollar spent DIYing, it can be worth as much as $10 returned. Of course that doesn't always happen IMO and often because people don't go far enough IMO. But in my case with the R-28F's I have had most of this satisfaction. Its been a great return in performance.

But there is something to be said to comparing hardly $50 in the stock parts to the $500 I spent, I expected some performance returns but these levels are unreal for the money spent.

Would you entertain a question from someone with a pair of RF3's and who has recently become more acutely aware of its shortcomings?

While I am able to see the obvious differences between the factory crossover and the one you built, I'm not expert enough to know why each of the components you selected are superior. Mainly because I don't understand what each of them are supposed to do. Can you describe for me and others like me, what each of the components does and why differences from one type to the other result in noticeable improvements in audio?

Please understand that what you've laid out is impressive, but it's also somewhat damning of the audio industry as a whole. It sounds as though a good crossover is perhaps more important than driver quality, or even amplifier quality....each of which can be hamstrung by a poor crossover. Yet these are seldom (if ever) discussed or recognized. Shouldn't better receivers have these built-in? Shouldn't loudspeaker manufacturers be spending more money on these things - even at the mid-fi level?

Thank you in advance, and thanks for the fascinating post.

I would suggest reading this on capacitors http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html

This on Inductors, BTW when I first read it I was in complete aw of what was said. Unfortunately the North Creek site is down. What you may want to read is North Creeks FAQ's on Inductors.

Resistors, for me the Duelunds are the finest I have ever heard. This is mostly because they have a negative temperature coefficient meaning as the heat up their resistance falls instead of rising like most resistors do. This allows effortless power expression with great smoothness.

Read this excellent report on resistor sound http://duelundaudio.com/wp-content/.../02/Resistors-vol5-no-3-HIFICritic-Hi-Res.pdf

Hope this will give you a start.

In the end it all matters, in my system everything is heard, its why I prefer a minimalist system.

SET12
 
SET12 how are the mods sounding? Still happy with them? Have yo tried any cabinet bracing?

Is it possible to replace the cheap plastic nuts on the binding posts?
 
This on Inductors, BTW when I first read it I was in complete aw of what was said. Unfortunately the North Creek site is down. What you may want to read is North Creeks FAQ's on Inductors.


SET12

Looks like North Creek went belly up.... too bad, I was thinking I'd eventually invest in their coils. C'est la vie, it's a tough business for sure.
 
Looks like North Creek went belly up.... too bad, I was thinking I'd eventually invest in their coils. C'est la vie, it's a tough business for sure.

They were in business for about 25 years. The historical site is up and running. He has retired but there is a lot of good information on his site. http://www.northcreekmusic.com/Retired/Inductors/inductors.html

I also found this on Mundorf Inductors http://www.hificollective.co.uk/sites/default/files/mundorf_baked.pdf

I intend to try the Mundorf out in the future They can be purchased here http://www.hificollective.co.uk/inductors/mundorf_L_range.html

Mundorf does vacuum impregnation which was a real plus for the North Creeks.




SET12 how are the mods sounding? Still happy with them? Have yo tried any cabinet bracing?

Is it possible to replace the cheap plastic nuts on the binding posts?

The modifications sound great and have improved with time on them. I am quite happy with the results. I haven't done any cabinet bracing as I am pretty happy as they are.

I may purchase the RP-280F's come fall and if I do I'll use the Mundorf Vacuum Varnish Inductors.

The RP-280F has a new horn design.

As worded from Klipsch

"90x90 HYBRID TRACTRIX HORN Redesigned Tactrix® Horn utilizes a circular horn throat paired to a square horn mouth to further improve high-frequency response and extension, while enhancing imaging and dynamics. The compressed molded rubber construction adds high frequency damping to reduce harshness and improve detail. This creates the cleanest, most natural sound possible."

As far as the speaker binding posts, I know what you mean as to their cheesiness. But after talking with the salesman he pointed out that the speaker binding posts have a plastic plug that can be pulled out so that one can use these. I guess they call them BFA Styled Banana Jacks. They work great, and are very secure, no more spades for me.

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You could still replace the speaker post with something better but the posts with their clips worked out very nicely for me as you maybe able to see I use single to dual clips so I could easily run separate CAT5e cables to each of the three drivers. The CAT5e internal cabling BTW sounds great, way better than what I might have expected. I'll never spend big $ on wire again.
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Thanks for the reply SET 12. I am using standard bananas on the bass but using bare wire for jumpers. Would like something a bit more solid as the outer plastic on the locking screws are not very solid and fall off.

The RP's look good but been looking at b-stock RF 7-2's for just a bit more. Been also searching crags for some low cost Lascala to perform some mods.
 
Hello fellow Klipsch enthusiasts.

Its been sometime since I have been real active on AK but for Christmas my wife endorsed the purchase of some new Klipsch's from a local national electronics store that were on sale at 1/2 off for a purchase price of a mere $450. The sale is off of course but I'm told they have an offering like this every Christmas Season.

They are of course a 2-way with dual 8 in woofers and a Tractrix tweeter. Normally I'm not to enthused over an 8 in 2-way because I often find the mids a bit recessed but I don't think this is the case with these, at least with the Hyper-Drive Crossovers.
View attachment 676312
When I got the speakers home I peered into the front port and just smiled as I saw very few components on the network board. And when I got the network out into my hand I smiled again as the parts values were very low. I measured the Inductor values and they were very low being a .47uH for the tweeter and 1uH for the woofers the cap across the woofers is 43uF and a 3.6uF cap used for the tweeter. The network is a Second Order network. The resistor (1.5 ohms) is used for some slight attenuation.

So I started brainstorming and thought of DaveC's RF35's which BTW are absolutely outstanding IMO. So I thought if he could get such good results with his I should be able to with these. And I'm here to tell you that's exactly what happen.

I further thought wouldn't it be nice if I could easily A-B both the stock and the Hyper-Drive networks as taking a stock speaker to do a comparison involves some time especially when I was doing my Modified Forte comparison to the stock Forte. I have done the comparison a few times with the Fortes but it was a real effort to go back and forth. So with the R28F it will barely take a minute or so as both networks will be plug and play.

I did some research on parts cost and decided to try and keep it reasonable as I spent some $3000 for my Fortes with parts.

I elected to go with Solen Inductors and Obbligato Gold Capacitors along with Duelund resistors with a parts cost of apprx. $500 with another $150 in misc jacks and wire. So for about $1100 I had what I felt would be a high performance 2-way.

Listening to the R28F with the Hyper-Drive networks.

Well I was taken back to what I feel is most of my Fortes performance. The 28's are powerful very extended in the low end but the shocking part of their performance was just how smooth they are and I mean real smooth. My Forte's are pretty smooth, smother than the stock Fortes but these 28's were another notch smoother literally everything is very musical with them.

I was listening with a Marantz PM5005 that was bought for my wife as my tube amps are down for some needed maintenance. But the Marantz for a SS amplifier sounds pretty darn good further I was surprised at how big the sound-stage was with the Marantz as most mid-fi Integrated amps usually are unable to project the image size that I was hearing.

I hope to get the stock networks in their boxes this weekend for a comparison then I post some further impressions.

I'll add a few more photo's.

SET12

View attachment 676319 View attachment 676320

Internal and external wiring.
View attachment 676321

Terminal Cup Connections, I used spade adapters female to two male.
View attachment 676324

Crossover Installation, just plug and play!
View attachment 676325

The R28F itself with grill off.
View attachment 676327

So, the R28F Modifications went really well and was done with a few simple hand tools. I hope everyone likes them as much as I do. I like to think of these as a real working person's speaker as they are so affordable and do so much.

SET12

So you modded your R28f's. that's pretty cool. I have a question for you SET12. the crossover on one of my R28f's failed. I'm going to take a look at that crossover to see if I can repair it. but my question to you is, what would be a direct replacement for a crossover? I don't want to spend 1000 dollars modding my R28f's. would just like a simple replacement. another question would be, if I can't get the exact stock model, for a crossover. would lets say, a couple 40 dollarish Dayton audio crossovers be acceptable??? what are my options here SET12? any help would be very much appreciated man. Thank you if you've read this far.

or if anyone can help guide me I'd very very much appreciate it.
 
Thanks much!

What makes you think you've blown the crossover? It could very easily be a tweeter and more often then not it is, especially on a two-way these.

index.php

As you can see there is not much to the crossover which is why I like it. As far as the cost of building my project I spent $500 for the pair of outboard crossovers. One could easily spend less and get most of the sound improvement that I got.

I saved the stock network just to demo against the my modded which only takes a couple of minutes. The resultant sound improvement isn't even a contest IMO or others that have heard them both, The speaker was built to a price point of course and I respect that. It is just amazing what can be done to improve on what is one of the weakest links in a sound system IMO. The late Steen Duelund (crossover parts designer) often had more money tied up in his personal crossovers then what the actual drivers were worth. And today you find his parts in many of the worlds finest loudspeakers.

As far as a Dayton replacement that is not going to work very well. If you think it really is the network or ruled it out by exchanging networks with the other speaker then I would call Klipsch parts it can't be real expensive. You could easily replace the two caps and the resistor. It is highly unlikely the Inductors are bad.

The cheapest part on the network has to be the non polar 3.6uf cap on the tweeter portion which is barely a couple of dollars if that. The 1.5 ohm resistor is my next bet but not likely is the 43uf cap. If the 43uf cap across the woofers gets shorted that would cut them completely out or even partially shorted effect their volume level.

Hope this helps!

SET12
 

Hey Redboy! Hows it going?

Well Saturday I'm going to hear a new pair of $3300 speakers that are about 99db efficient called Tekton Double Impacts that are fast becoming a rage. If you read this review you may see why! https://hometheaterreview.com/tekton-design-double-impact-floorstanding-speaker-reviewed/

I've heard a lot of speakers over the years and one never knows.

So it should be very interesting especially being a speaker that is rated to go down to 20Hz 10 watts powers them to the moon.
 
Thanks much!

What makes you think you've blown the crossover? It could very easily be a tweeter and more often then not it is, especially on a two-way these.

index.php

As you can see there is not much to the crossover which is why I like it. As far as the cost of building my project I spent $500 for the pair of outboard crossovers. One could easily spend less and get most of the sound improvement that I got.

I saved the stock network just to demo against the my modded which only takes a couple of minutes. The resultant sound improvement isn't even a contest IMO or others that have heard them both, The speaker was built to a price point of course and I respect that. It is just amazing what can be done to improve on what is one of the weakest links in a sound system IMO. The late Steen Duelund (crossover parts designer) often had more money tied up in his personal crossovers then what the actual drivers were worth. And today you find his parts in many of the worlds finest loudspeakers.

As far as a Dayton replacement that is not going to work very well. If you think it really is the network or ruled it out by exchanging networks with the other speaker then I would call Klipsch parts it can't be real expensive. You could easily replace the two caps and the resistor. It is highly unlikely the Inductors are bad.

The cheapest part on the network has to be the non polar 3.6uf cap on the tweeter portion which is barely a couple of dollars if that. The 1.5 ohm resistor is my next bet but not likely is the 43uf cap. If the 43uf cap across the woofers gets shorted that would cut them completely out or even partially shorted effect their volume level.

Hope this helps!

SET12

I found a 50hz sine wave and played it. turned the balance to one side, left speaker worked perfectly. turned balance right side, the speaker on the right wasnt producing the low frequencies at all. I luckily found a "terminal" on ebay which was salvaged from a physically damaged speaker for 60 dollars. it has the crossover attached. so i will replace the entire terminal + crossover assembly now. thank you for reading my post but I'm sure I have it solved. <3

PS. all woofers and coils are intact, read right on the ohm meter, and push and pull under power. so it is certainly not a speaker, and the tweeters well, both sides are deafening when you put your ear up close to them, so both tweeters are working full strength.

the lpf on the crossover failed, is what I think. and I'm going to replace the entire crossover assembly in a couple of weeks. I'll update you. thanks again.
 
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if you have isolated the problem to the woofer section of the crossover then it is almost certain that the issue is with the 43 uf capacitor and not the inductor. why not replace the cap and see if that sets things right?
 
if you have isolated the problem to the woofer section of the crossover then it is almost certain that the issue is with the 43 uf capacitor and not the inductor. why not replace the cap and see if that sets things right?

I'm getting a replacement -and- I'm going to repair mine. I am an Electronic-Optronic Systems Technician and I have capacitors at work. 43 micro eh, good to know.
 
I found a 50hz sine wave and played it. turned the balance to one side, left speaker worked perfectly. turned balance right side, the speaker on the right wasnt producing the low frequencies at all. I luckily found a "terminal" on ebay which was salvaged from a physically damaged speaker for 60 dollars. it has the crossover attached. so i will replace the entire terminal + crossover assembly now. thank you for reading my post but I'm sure I have it solved. <3

PS. all woofers and coils are intact, read right on the ohm meter, and push and pull under power. so it is certainly not a speaker, and the tweeters well, both sides are deafening when you put your ear up close to them, so both tweeters are working full strength.

the lpf on the crossover failed, is what I think. and I'm going to replace the entire crossover assembly in a couple of weeks. I'll update you. thanks again.

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so 43 microfarad cap killed confirmed, crossover replacement coming in a weekish, but, if I am going to repair my old crossover, I need to find a 43 microfarad 100v capacitor.... do any of you guys have any idea where I could buy one? I can't find them online anywhere. my boss said I can order caps through work and get a discount, but i kind of doubt the military will have what I need.... .... .... any -more- help would be appreciated. Thanks guys.
 
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so 43 microfarad cap killed confirmed, crossover replacement coming in a weekish, but, if I am going to repair my old crossover, I need to find a 43 microfarad 100v capacitor.... do any of you guys have any idea where I could buy one? I can't find them online anywhere. my boss said I can order caps through work and get a discount, but i kind of doubt the military will have what I need.... .... .... any -more- help would be appreciated. Thanks guys.

Try this https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/components/capacitors.html I believe it maybe reasonably close to you.

I think the military could very well have what you need. I work with medical equipment and I see caps all the time that I could work with.

What you want is a 100 volt Polypropylene film cap. Remember when you go higher in voltage the cap will be larger so you kind of want it to fit.

SET12
 
Try this https://www.hificollective.co.uk/catalog/components/capacitors.html I believe it maybe reasonably close to you.

I think the military could very well have what you need. I work with medical equipment and I see caps all the time that I could work with.

What you want is a 100 volt Polypropylene film cap. Remember when you go higher in voltage the cap will be larger so you kind of want it to fit.

SET12

... I'm in Canada. and yeah my boss found some promising looking caps. i just need the nitty gritty details like ESR that I need now... polypropylene film cap perfect. thank you.

yeah the caps my boss found are tantalum
 
I finally got the part. replaced the entire crossover and terminal assy with a new different one. my 43microfarad blew again. I could cry. I seriously feel like crying. so I'm just guessing that there's something faulty up higher? perhaps behind one of the speakers??? please for the love of god. if you know anything, educate me. I dont have an alan key that fits the speakers right now... **** I'm sad.
 
I need to know where to order parts, honestly and I need to know what's causing my heartache behind the woofers.
 
looking at the schematic there's nothing else that can go wrong besides my amp that im using. ... that's what I'm suspecting now. my old yamaha RX-V596. ... i need another Crossover+terminal assy now.
 
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