SET12
Super Member
Moray,
You beat me to it. While I don't have the quality of crossover like SET12 has been describing, I feel that the engineering and parts quality that were built into my speakers by Klipsch for their price point was excellent. As with most things, there are always ways to improve on a factory design, per the posts by SET12 and Moray here and in multiple other threads.
I'm use to being entertained by some very expensive products. Though nowadays I can no longer afford them. So I'm left to DIYing.
I wish it were that easy for Manufactures to build the performance that I now have but as Moray below has pointed out It's just simple economics. And not a lot of people really care that much. I really thank people like Steen Duelund who spent most of his life devoted to high performance parts. He often had more money tied up into his crossovers than what the actual drivers cost.
The beauty of these R-28F's is that the networks are relatively simple and the parts values are small. So its very cool when these R-28F's and $500 in parts are competing against $2500 in parts for my Forte's.
You don't live to far from me so your welcome for a visit, and who knows the experience could change your whole outlook.
if they (the manufacturers) spent this kind of money on network parts) even with volume discounts you could not aford to buy the speakers due to the increase in cost. It's just simple economics. That's why aftermarket upgrade make such good sense. Give the makers a break they have to turn a profit or they could not exist. You get exactly what you pay for and Klipsch do a good job of delivering the goods at any price point you care to choose. They do a very good job of finding the right balance to deliver the goods at an affordable price in my estimation. Remember you see just the end product and then do a mental parts count and cost but you don't see the R&D that goes into products nor the volume purchases that are necessary to get the prices down nor the huge overheads and salaries. It all adds up very quickly.
I forgot to mention the cost of advertising. It's not just about letting you know these products exist and where to find them etc. It's all about creating an image that fits with your lifestyle or the lifestyle that you aspire to. At the end of the day the margins are not fat. Klipsch offer you the opportunity to purchase very good quality components which I find respond very well to some TLC in the form of modification. You can get better components in the upper range of say JBL or EV but they cost a lot more to begin with and that's because they were better engineered and built and that's why they cost more and that's why there is usually a lot less to modify on them because it mostly done to begin with. Klipsch are that nice balance whether you buy them and leave them stock or you buy them and modify them they are still great value. Klipsch were very well engineered to provide very good value as well as very good sound.
Very well said Moray!
I think the thing to understand for DIYing is the return value. For every dollar spent DIYing, it can be worth as much as $10 returned. Of course that doesn't always happen IMO and often because people don't go far enough IMO. But in my case with the R-28F's I have had most of this satisfaction. Its been a great return in performance.
But there is something to be said to comparing hardly $50 in the stock parts to the $500 I spent, I expected some performance returns but these levels are unreal for the money spent.
Would you entertain a question from someone with a pair of RF3's and who has recently become more acutely aware of its shortcomings?
While I am able to see the obvious differences between the factory crossover and the one you built, I'm not expert enough to know why each of the components you selected are superior. Mainly because I don't understand what each of them are supposed to do. Can you describe for me and others like me, what each of the components does and why differences from one type to the other result in noticeable improvements in audio?
Please understand that what you've laid out is impressive, but it's also somewhat damning of the audio industry as a whole. It sounds as though a good crossover is perhaps more important than driver quality, or even amplifier quality....each of which can be hamstrung by a poor crossover. Yet these are seldom (if ever) discussed or recognized. Shouldn't better receivers have these built-in? Shouldn't loudspeaker manufacturers be spending more money on these things - even at the mid-fi level?
Thank you in advance, and thanks for the fascinating post.
I would suggest reading this on capacitors http://www.humblehomemadehifi.com/Cap.html
This on Inductors, BTW when I first read it I was in complete aw of what was said. Unfortunately the North Creek site is down. What you may want to read is North Creeks FAQ's on Inductors.
Resistors, for me the Duelunds are the finest I have ever heard. This is mostly because they have a negative temperature coefficient meaning as the heat up their resistance falls instead of rising like most resistors do. This allows effortless power expression with great smoothness.
Read this excellent report on resistor sound http://duelundaudio.com/wp-content/.../02/Resistors-vol5-no-3-HIFICritic-Hi-Res.pdf
Hope this will give you a start.
In the end it all matters, in my system everything is heard, its why I prefer a minimalist system.
SET12