Modified Forte 1 Upgrades-Bob Crites Autotransformers and Titanium Tweeters

Parts are IN

Hopefully some time will be available soon to modify my Fortes. Boxes at upper right are the Titanium midrange.
 

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I'll be back guy's I just lost everything I wrote and have to out but will reply back soon.

I had posted a comment about the size/rating of the large inductor, and found by actually checking that I was wrong; edited it with the "brain f@rt" comment... sorry about silliness and misunderstanding.

Yes, the Forte I seems a pretty simple diagram, compared to the ALKs and newer iterations of speakers.

I might have questions about calculating crossover specs for 3-way speakers with multiple woofers soon, but it's all in the pondering stage at this point...

Hi set 12,
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen Audio Crossovers.pdf

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen%20Audio%20Crossovers.pdf

If the link doesn't work: Go Google, write " jantzen klipsh forte". It's:"Jantzen Audio - Klipsch Forte Crossover Rebuild By Jake Montzingo"



thank you for all links.
For points, my floor is tiled. so hard. this is why I thought of Soundcare superspikes.
I looked at retail sites in France and in Europe and I can not find 0.16 and 3.0 mh in AWG12.
I can not buy in the U.S. because of the weight.
I'll still try to look.
therefore the self-train is not a priority?( I understood?), I would first change the capacitors, air core inductors and diaph titanium and I suppose the internal cables.

for inductors, there is there a difference between the solen litz (stranded)( like Brinkman) and other (monofilament)?, I read that you'd prefer the far north creek monofilament.

My drive is a consonance cd2.2 tweaked and amp tubes consonance ref 5.0 with 300B, synergistic research interconnects looking glass and speaker cable Van den Hul Magnum Hybrid.

my Forte is 1 foot in front of the wall, the left does not have a corner because the wall is open and the right one is 1 foot from a corner

thanks

Hopefully some time will be available soon to modify my Fortes. Boxes at upper right are the Titanium midrange.

I can't help to comment here as the sight of this says it all.

SET12
 
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I can't help to comment here as the sight of this says it all.

SET12

Thanks again for all your hard work. The critical midrange will use Mundorf Silver/Oil capacitors. I'll get back after mods.
 
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I had posted a comment about the size/rating of the large inductor, and found by actually checking that I was wrong; edited it with the "brain f@rt" comment... sorry about silliness and misunderstanding.

Yes, the Forte I seems a pretty simple diagram, compared to the ALKs and newer iterations of speakers.

I might have questions about calculating crossover specs for 3-way speakers with multiple woofers soon, but it's all in the pondering stage at this point...

I have actually thought about a "Double Forte" with the cabinets stacked, one upside down. Better yet with a new cabinet same dimensions as the two combined but with the drivers mounted on 12in side of the cabinet so it would be longer depth wise. Some would say then it wouldn't be a Forte anymore as some say now after the mods I have done. Still I wonder what double Fortes would be like not that I need them as I have plenty of volume sound wise but I like the thought of the efficiency doubling for even lower power use.




Hi set 12,
http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen Audio Crossovers.pdf

http://www.jantzen-audio.com/download/Jantzen%20Audio%20Crossovers.pdf

If the link doesn't work: Go Google, write " jantzen klipsh forte". It's:"Jantzen Audio - Klipsch Forte Crossover Rebuild By Jake Montzingo"

I did see the article once before and just read over it. Interesting how while there were improvements which I would expect. They did not nearly sound as great as the ones I did like this statement from AKer SWL3600 who BTW own's several sub woofers.

But really its the whole system that counts stock Fortes are not even close to doing what Scott experienced below. It takes a more serious approach then just using average good replacement parts.

SET12 here on the forum has some Forte's that will blow you away.

A pair of DIY SET mono-blocks (10 wpc) and modified outboard crossovers that take the Forte's to another level of performance.....and then some.

A huge soundstage, imaging at it's best and powerful.......I mean powerful bass that is subsonic perfection. The "Jackhammer" like bass is like no other Forte I've ever heard. These amps have serious power. They ooze all the wonderful tube qualities but with muscle that controls the low end with authority.

If you're ever in his neck of the woods, listening to his system is a real treat. Klipsch owner or not......his system demands respect. Dan is a gentleman with wisdom that he's eager to share. Great guy.......great experience. Thanks Dan.



-Scott



thank you for all links.
For points, my floor is tiled. so hard. this is why I thought of Soundcare superspikes.
I looked at retail sites in France and in Europe and I can not find 0.16 and 3.0 mh in AWG12.
I can not buy in the U.S. because of the weight.
I'll still try to look.
therefore the self-train is not a priority?( I understood?), I would first change the capacitors, air core inductors and diaph titanium and I suppose the internal cables.

for inductors, there is there a difference between the solen litz (stranded)( like Brinkman) and other (monofilament)?, I read that you'd prefer the far north creek monofilament.

My drive is a consonance cd2.2 tweaked and amp tubes consonance ref 5.0 with 300B, synergistic research interconnects looking glass and speaker cable Van den Hul Magnum Hybrid.

my Forte is 1 foot in front of the wall, the left does not have a corner because the wall is open and the right one is 1 foot from a corner

thanks

For points I still would use the coaster with the points as this would protect your floors.

Its hard to search Europe from the US I would think there are suppliers.

But I did come up with this http://www.hificollective.co.uk/components/mundorf_aircoils.html

I also saw this comment

"For the larger diameter wire coils where baked varnish is not a option, Mundorf will "vacuum impregnate" your coils for an additional charge of £13.10 + vat. per coil. You can select this treatment to be applied to your coils when you make your order. Click HERE! to find out more."

"Vacuum Impregnation" this what I would get done I would highly recommend at least 12AWG and 10AWG if possible.

If you have to, give them a call I would think they could do a special .16mH wind for you.

Yes your set up could be better, but I understand space can be an issue. To have an open wall with full corners really opens up the space. Even if your in a situation like I am with my wife and sharing a living room that is used for TV viewing amongst other things.

One observation that I have had is that even with the modified Forte's the imaging is so large and so well defined it seems to make little difference even with all the stuff between the Fortes as pictured, its as though the stuff is not even there. The system just produces an image wall to wall and beyond as well as floor to ceiling sound. I suspect symmetrical room placement goes a long way in the evenness of the image especially spacial ques for a rooms recorded size. If I was using an open ended corner there would be a suck out of those ques on one side. I know this as when I moved in to my current residence I set the system up on the opposite wall which had an open corner which was not the same in my previous setup with full corners. The open space 4.5ft the corners is a big help I beleive as lateral imaging can extend several feet beyond the side walls. Its an experience to hear this as Scott above mentions.

sd530170.jpg



Hopefully some time will be available soon to modify my Fortes. Boxes at upper right are the Titanium midrange.

I'm looking forward to it. BTW what has been your expense so far and did you get 12AWG or 10AWG inductors?

SET12
 
I'm looking forward to it. BTW what has been your expense so far and did you get 12AWG or 10AWG inductors?

SET12

Guessing. I been buying a lot, lot of new projects.

Double Core midrange transformers $280 shipped
Northcreek- $320 (#12 woofer, #10 tweeter)
Mundroff & 47uF Caps + Kwiame resistors- $160 shipped
Titanium Midrange- $160
1/2" braided ground return wire (equal #4 gage)- $10
#10 oxygen free ultra high stranded wire- $10

Total- $940

My Garrard 401 project dwarfs the Kilpsch project cost wise. The NOS tubes in my Fisher 400 cost is close to the Klipsch project, but are the best. The Klipsch will likely give the most return for audio dollars spent.
 
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I have actually thought about a "Double Forte" with the cabinets stacked, one upside down. Better yet with a new cabinet same dimensions as the two combined but with the drivers mounted on 12in side of the cabinet so it would be longer depth wise.


:banana:

Just do it... I would make a summer trip (this or next) up there to hear them
 
SET12,
Very enjoyable thread!

Just to be clear... All of your external crossover modifications are using the original Forte I schematics and component values?
Steve
 
SET12,
Very enjoyable thread!

Just to be clear... All of your external crossover modifications are using the original Forte I schematics and component values?
Steve

Well, Thank you Steve.

More or less yes.

The differences are in the Inductors with much lower DC resistance along with of course their wire gauge.

I use the Crites Titanium tweeters and the Klipsch Titanium midranges other than these differences the parts values are stock.

And lets not forget the wonderful German C-Core Auto-transformers.

BTW welcome to AK!

SET12
 
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I replied to to your PM, lots of parts. One basically gets what one pays for IMO. I looked up the prices of the inductors for North Creek 10AWG air cores I came up with $435/speaker. For 12AWG a starting point for high performance I came up with $260/speaker.

Two area's I find hard to compromise on are the Inductors and resistors as I find Duelund resistors well ahead of the crowd.

In a pinch I would use Solen 10AWG solid cores,

Caps are a flavor the Mundorf "M" Supreme caps work very well and I have heard the Sonicaps as well.

I prefer not to use Litz Inductors with Klipsch as I find them to harsh sounding. Under no circumstance would I ever use an Iron Core Inductor for a serious upgrade as they are very departmental to the sound quality IMO.

5amd.jpg


SET12
 
Set12,
Before I spend the money on parts I am trying to decide if I want to stay with the Forte II or switch to the Forte I in order to tone down the mids.

BTW I'm using a Decware SE34I.3 amp, thanks for the info.
Steve
 
Well I slept on it and I'm going to upgrade the stock Forte II network. I think that I will try the Duelund Copper foil caps as a first step.
Steve
 
Thanks set12 for this thread. I think I will start to read this thread next weekend..all weekend.
 
SET12,
If you were beginning today with a stock Forte would you start your modifications with a stock crossover or with an ALK crossover?

More parts in the signal path vs fewer parts as the issue, not cost. and
Better electrically vs old school.

Do you have the link to the thread that ALK wrote documenting his design work for the Forte II.
Steve
 
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go to the ALK website

PS: ALK no longer offers "universal' xovr kits.
you must buy them at $350 or so from his partner.
 
go to the ALK website

PS: ALK no longer offers "universal' xovr kits.
you must buy them at $350 or so from his partner.

That is correct ferninando.

But I believe your thinking of the ALK Universal used for typically the Khorn, LaScala.

The Forte and Forte II is a different animal all together.

http://www.alkeng.com/

SET12,
If you were beginning today with a stock Forte would you start your modifications with a stock crossover or with an ALK crossover?

More parts in the signal path vs fewer parts as the issue, not cost. and
Better electrically vs old school.

Do you have the link to the thread that ALK wrote documenting his design work for the Forte II.
Steve

The ALK does intrigue me, But the stock network is musical.

With more parts vs fewer parts being the issue. Fewer parts win up to a point. If your going be playing at really high 100db+ SPL levels at your chair you'll want more control of driver break up. So more parts will have the edge. But at lower to mid levels the simpler networks tend to sound fuller while the ALK Extreme networks tend to sound leaner at low to mid volume levels.

For someone using low to medium power, extreme networks are totally not needed IMO. The leanness was pretty easy to hear IMO bench mark set by my modified Forte networks which is why my friend jdg123 built ALK Universals with premium parts to replace the ALK Extreme networks he was using. He felt the Universal was fuller more detailed and more punchier sounding. Especially when listening to SET amplifiers.

I might add that the Klipsch Titanium mid has superior control of break up vs the stock mid or even the better very nice Crites I find that the Forte one has a higher crossover point vs the Forte II, just look at the stock tweeter crossover cap values. The Forte II's caps are of higher capacitance allowing an earlier crossover point. The concern here is driver overlap which causes summing of the drivers resulting in a pronounce peak.

I would use the Forte 1 tweeter network values to push the tweeter higher and allow the Titanium to roll off thus avoiding the overlap.

So the ALK network takes care of the issue of driver overlap or the Crites add on network adjusts for this as well. But I would prefer the ALK method vs the Klipsch that Crites uses. Simply because I find iron core inductors to damaging to the sound for my tastes.

Yes ALK has a link at his site but it apparently does not work probably because of Klipsch revamping their website. I couldn't find it when I briefly looked.

SET12
 
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