My Garrard Lab 80 Obsession

[malden]

Regarding your hum issue, make sure all of the connections are free of corrosion or carbon build-up.

Inspect the following:

• cartridge pins and female head-shell connectors
  
• head-shell to tone-arm pins,
  
• RCA connectors, male and female under the chassis,
  
• RCA cable ends at the amplifier.

Regarding the speed issue, the motor spindle and inner rim of the platter should be cleaned with alcohol to remove any oily residue which could cause slippage. In some cases, cleaning them with a green or maroon scotch pad may be helpful. Also, the idler wheel post and washers should be cleaned with alcohol. A drop or two of lightweight oil should do it.

Platter bearing noise could be due to old lubricant or damaged bearings, or both. I don't think you need to remove the large gear to access them.

 

[nurnberger]

Thanks!
I tightened and refitted the cartridge pins and that reduced the hum a bit. The head-shell to tonearm pins look bright and clean, but I'll try another RCA cable and clean the female connectors under the chassis. I did do the alcohol cleaning on the spindle and platter rim. I'll take another shot at taking out the ball bearings and scrubbing out that main bearing, and I guess I could always replace the ball bearings since those are easy enough to find. The auto return started working nicely now, so that's one less thing to worry about.

 

[Chilibrother]

Hi everyone!

I'm new to all this craziness... picked up a Lab 80, late Mk 1 edition with enclosed tonearm, on Craigslist few weeks ago. It was cheap and looked cool so I figured "why not?", which is when I discovered this amazing thread. I'm still working my way through it, but I figured out pretty quickly that the idler would need rebuilding, so that part has been restored by V-M. I've also done as much cleaning and re-lubing as I could without dismantling it. However, I still have a list of things to fix to get this thing to a serviceable condition.

1. It spins up instantly, but the speed tops out at 32 rpm and stays there. I've oiled the platter bearing, and all the ball bearings and washers are in there. It spins freely, but there is still some noise coming from that bearing. I think I will need to remove that large gear which blocks the bearing to completely clean it out. I've also added some turbine oil to the top motor bearing. But I suspect in order to correct the speed I'll have to remove the motor to fully clean and lube the motor bearings. Any tips on how best to do that? Anything else I can do to get it to the correct speed? I've cleaned the inner platter rim.

2. I only have the manual spindle, and really don't care about most of the auto functions. But auto-return would be nice and that doesn't work at all. The tonearm damping mechanism doesn't work either, I have to gently lower the headshell by hand. I'm guessing damping fluid is needed here? From what I understand, engaging the manual play switch should raise the tonearm a bit so it can be lowered by the damping mechanism. I guess there's a linkage that needs to be looked at there...

essing the main bearing friction is getting picked up by the cartridge.

So that's where I'm at. I'm invested enough at this point to dig in further and really get under the hood of this thing.

IMG_6525

• nurnberger
• Mar 24, 2018

IMG_6524

• nurnberger
• Mar 24, 2018

Congratulations! Looks like it is in nice shape. You will enjoy it.

Malden is spot on with advice on speed issue. You can clean the platter bearing without removing the cam wheel by taking off the top washer, removing the five ball bearings (I use a magnetized jewelers screwdriver) and then tilting up the fiber spacer. That should let you flush out everything under it and relube. My bearings had dark spots that looked like corrosion so I replaced them - a sack of 50 on Amazon are cheap. Does your platter continue spinning for a minute or so after the motor is shutoff?

Sounds like the linkage that raises and lowers cueing function is still gummed up. I only figured it out by repeatedly pressing the manual play button and then the cueing button and watching the linkage. In the end if was a matter of doing a better job of cleaning and lubing a spot in the linkage that slowly slides to engage and then release the cueing (about where the arrow is below).

Good luck. It's worth the work.

 

[sberger]

Because of the latest posts, I just checked the speed on my Lab 80, and it's running a little fast. I've checked the manual and completed the steps indicated but still running fast. Anybody have any ideas for a fix?

 

[malden]

Because of the latest posts, I just checked the speed on my Lab 80, and it's running a little fast. I've checked the manual and completed the steps indicated but still running fast. Anybody have any ideas for a fix?

I have the same problem with my Elac 40 turntable. I've read suggestions to reduce the pulley size but I think that kind of irreversible measure is too drastic. I'm stumped as well.

 

[sberger]

It's no big deal. Not really evident(at least to me) so I'm not gonna worry. I have speed adjustment on both my Dual 1019 and Elac 50H II, so if I need to play something at exactly the right speed, I'll use one of them

 

[nurnberger]

Congratulations! Looks like it is in nice shape. You will enjoy it.

Malden is spot on with advice on speed issue. You can clean the platter bearing without removing the cam wheel by taking off the top washer, removing the five ball bearings (I use a magnetized jewelers screwdriver) and then tilting up the fiber spacer. That should let you flush out everything under it and relube. My bearings had dark spots that looked like corrosion so I replaced them - a sack of 50 on Amazon are cheap. Does your platter continue spinning for a minute or so after the motor is shutoff?

Sounds like the linkage that raises and lowers cueing function is still gummed up. I only figured it out by repeatedly pressing the manual play button and then the cueing button and watching the linkage. In the end if was a matter of doing a better job of cleaning and lubing a spot in the linkage that slowly slides to engage and then release the cueing (about where the arrow is below).

Good luck. It's worth the work.


View attachment 1145354

That's helpful, thanks!

I did clean out the main bearing again... gave it a good dowsing of lighter fluid and cleaned it out the best I could. It looks really clean and it doesn't seem like there's much else I can do to reduce noise there. It's still not totally quiet but I suspect it's within a normal range for this table and I can live with it. I also lubed the motor some more, including in the lower bearing. Unfortunately the speed is still audibly slow. I'm going to leave it running for a few hours, maybe that will help, not sure how long this thing has sat unused. Other than that the motor seems to work perfectly... the spindle will continue to spin for a while after being switched off, and it's not humming or anything like that. Very weird that the speed is off by that much.

 

[GP49]

"A little fast."

"A little slow."

How much is that?

QUANTITATIVE, please, not qualitative. How? (the following is for use in regions with 60Hz AC mains frequency) View a strobe under a proper pulsating AC light source, with a FIXED pointer over the strobe lines (you can use some plasticene, modeling clay, or other such to affix something to use as a pointer). A drift of one line in three seconds is 0.3% which happens to be the standard established by the National Association of Broadcasters for turntables used in radio broadcasting. Turntable speed was critical in broadcasting because the timing of recorded selections had to be near-perfect to fit in between commercials, network feeds and the like.

If you have an electronic speed measuring device, or a frequency counter that you use with a test record, you can directly measure the speed and calculate the error, if necessary.

A +/- 0.3% speed accuracy is very good, indeed. The standard at the Garrard factory for the automatic turntables was 2%, or a drift of over six strobe lines in three seconds. To be fair, the vast majority of Garrard's hi-fi units with induction motors (I define "hi-fi" as having large platters, 10" or more in diameter, and four-pole motors) were on the fast side up to that 2% to allow for aging of the unit as its lubricants became more viscous with age.

The synchronous-motor units ("Synchro-Lab") were, of course, much closer to exact speed, most meeting that NAB standard easily.

Also, a speed measurement should be taken when the motor is fully warmed up. Give it at least ten to fifteen minutes. The manuals for the Garrard 301 and 401 transcription turntables, which had adjustable speeds, specified that the unit should be fully warmed up before adjusting.

 

[gadget73]

I notice some speed drift on my Zero-100. When cold it runs a wee bit slow, but it comes up to speed by the end of an album side. Only reason I even know its slow is because of the built in strobe. Its not audible.

 

[nurnberger]

"A little fast."

"A little slow."

How much is that?

QUANTITATIVE, please, not qualitative. How? (the following is for use in regions with 60Hz AC mains frequency) View a strobe under a proper pulsating AC light source, with a FIXED pointer over the strobe lines (you can use some plasticene, modeling clay, or other such to affix something to use as a pointer). A drift of one line in three seconds is 0.3% which happens to be the standard established by the National Association of Broadcasters for turntables used in radio broadcasting. Turntable speed was critical in broadcasting because the timing of recorded selections had to be near-perfect to fit in between commercials, network feeds and the like.

If you have an electronic speed measuring device, or a frequency counter that you use with a test record, you can directly measure the speed and calculate the error, if necessary.

A +/- 0.3% speed accuracy is very good, indeed. The standard at the Garrard factory for the automatic turntables was 2%, or a drift of over six strobe lines in three seconds. To be fair, the vast majority of Garrard's hi-fi units with induction motors (I define "hi-fi" as having large platters, 10" or more in diameter, and four-pole motors) were on the fast side up to that 2% to allow for aging of the unit as its lubricants became more viscous with age.

The synchronous-motor units ("Synchro-Lab") were, of course, much closer to exact speed, most meeting that NAB standard easily.

Also, a speed measurement should be taken when the motor is fully warmed up. Give it at least ten to fifteen minutes. The manuals for the Garrard 301 and 401 transcription turntables, which had adjustable speeds, specified that the unit should be fully warmed up before adjusting.

Very interesting, thanks for the input. An app using my iPhone's gyroscope reads 32.5 rpm, -2.5%, and that is after allowing the motor to warm up, but I'll also try the method you suggested. Qualitatively speaking, by "a little slow" I mean that the music sounds a bit off, tempos are a bit sluggish. I didn't measure the speed at all until after I noticed this. So while I don't necessarily care if the speed is 100% exact, I'd like to get it working to the point where I can't hear the speed affect the music. One thing that has occurred to me is that the 33rpm section on the motor pulley is clearly a bit worn. Wouldn't even a slight reduction in diameter cause the motor to turn the idler a little slower? Anyone have an extra motor pulley they'd be willing to sell?

 

[malden]

The only time I check the speed on a turntable is, when listening to a familiar record, it sounds slow or fast.

 

[nurnberger]

The only time I check the speed on a turntable is, when listening to a familiar record, it sounds slow or fast.

Same here. I’ve used a bunch of different turntables, but never had any reason to question speed accuracy until now. I’m going to let it be, since I’m pretty sure it’s due to a worn area on the motor spindle. If a replacement pops up I’ll give that try, though I’m not holding my breath. By the way, does anyone know if there any other Garrard tables that use the same motor spindle/pulley?

 

[GP49]

An app using my iPhone's gyroscope reads 32.5 rpm, -2.5%,
and that is after allowing the motor to warm up.

-2.5% is beyond tolerance when the Lab 80 was built.
Garrard specified +/- 2% but most often that error was
on the high (fast) side to allow for aging and thickening
of lubricants. When Garrard was in business, all you
would have had to do was to send them the motor pulley, with
the -2.5% test result, and they would machine you a new
pulley! I actually had to do this for a Type A that I once
owned. It was 1.5% slow, which was within tolerance, but
Garrard sent me back a new pulley with which my Type A ran
0.2% fast when warmed up.

One thing that has occurred to me is that the 33rpm section on the
motor pulley is clearly a bit worn. Wouldn't even a slight reduction
in diameter cause the motor to turn the idler a little slower?

Yes. You could try loosening the three grub screws holding the motor
pulley and slide it up or down so the idler wheel centres on a
less-worn portion.

By the way, does anyone know if there any other Garrard tables that
use the same motor spindle/pulley?

The Garrard four-pole induction motors from that era all are built on the
same frame (stator) and rotor, but the shaft lengths, suspension and
pulleys differ. The Lab 80's suspension cradle, rotor shaft (motor
spindle), shock mounts and motor pulley are unique and only found on
the Lab 80 and 80 Mk II.

 

[sberger]

A +/- 0.3% speed accuracy is very good, indeed. The standard at the Garrard factory for the automatic turntables was 2%, or a drift of over six strobe lines in three seconds.

Thanks this is helpful. Using the KAB strobe I'm within this measurement. Certainly I can't hear any difference between music played on the Lab 80, and the 2 tables that have speed control that I have so I'll be following this wise rule of thumb going forward.

The only time I check the speed on a turntable is, when listening to a familiar record, it sounds slow or fast.

 

[nurnberger]

Thanks for the input GP49! I added a washer under the idler to raise it just a bit, and that alone raised my speed to 33. Speed issue is solved!

 

[GP49]

By hook or by crook; whatever works is good!

 

[hurdy_gurdyman]

Hi all. I'm Dave and recently purchased a Lab 80mkII. I found this thread and read the entire thing from the beginning over the last few days. I guess that shows I have no life. Anyways, after lots of cleaning of the motor and platter bearing, I have the platter spinning right on the money from cold and still running the same speed after a few hours of playing. I have no interest in having the changer work, so not going to bother trying. I've had nothing but manual tables for over 20 years, so why change now...
Anyway, I bought this because it was the table I wanted one as a teen in the late 60's, more because of it's looks than anything else, so I'm fulfilling a teen fancy. What surprised me is just how well this is performing. I've been using a Rek-O-Kut Rondine B12 for the past 8 years or so, and this Gerrard has better speed accuracy (the ROK starts off slow and ends up a bit fast after a half hour or so of playing), and runs just as quiet (you can hear them both up close, but are pretty quiet through the speakers). A bigger surprise is the tonearm. I have tried a Shure M91E, an Audio-Technica AT95, a Grado Prestige Blue and a Shure M95ED. All track perfectly in this arm. I prefer the sound of the M95ED tracking at 1.5g. It's tracked every record I've thrown at it, including my torture record (damaged by static discharge years ago). It actually tracks this record better than my Black Widow/ADC-LXM combo. Good synergy, maybe?
I built a heavy plinth for the ROK shortly after I got it, and am planing on doing the same to the Garrard this summer. I'll coax every iota of quality I can out of it.
Other tables I have to compare it to are: Dual 1019, Denon DP75 with after market plinth and a VM Professional arm, and finally a Garrard SL 95b.
Enjoying my record collection all over again...

Dave

 

[gadget73]

I'm one of those people that insists on all the stuff working even if I don't use it. At a minimum the changer part needs to work enough for the auto-return to work reliably even if you never stack records on it.

 

[sberger]

I'm one of those people that insists on all the stuff working even if I don't use it. At a minimum the changer part needs to work enough for the auto-return to work reliably even if you never stack records on it.

I used to be one of those people. Then I got over it. I never used the changer, and now my auto return doesn't work. I've tinkered till I'm blue in the face but can't get it going. So be it. Other then those little aberrations, it performs beautifully and delivers the sound that made me fall in love with Lab 80's in the first place. It's one of 4 tables that I use regularly. 2 of them are automatics. Getting up and walking 2 feet to change a record side is not going to stop me from enjoying this great table. Sonically or visually.

 

[hurdy_gurdyman]

I didn't expect the changer to work when I bought it. It does fine as a full manual unit. My Dual 1019 doesn't work on automatic, either. The REK and Denon don't even have an arm return. I'm good with the Garrard just the way it is. When I build a new plinth, I may remove most of the changer parts underneath just to get rid of any possible resonances. This will be my poor audiophile 301/401.

Dave