Net Streams vs. CD's

Discussion in 'General Audio Discussion' started by Soundork, Nov 19, 2018.

  1. sqlsavior

    sqlsavior AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    6,173
    Location:
    Española NM
    What's astonishing is that we all paid for TV, and STILL GOT ADVERTISING. :mad: There are more and more cord-cutters these days. We save over a thousand dollars a year by going OTA and not paying for satellite. My wife and I have as much of the squawk-box as we need, not that anyone really needs any of it...
     
    Bill Ferris and GChief like this.

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  2. +48V

    +48V hi-fi or die

    Messages:
    2,864
    Location:
    Tega Cay
    +1
     
  3. Lossless

    Lossless Active Member

    Messages:
    272
    Location:
    backwoods
    Just a follow up on your CD player recommendations. I have since played around with two different CD players Playstation 3 using the Toslink output directly into my Fisher RS-Z1's Burr Brown Dacs and found the sound quality of PS3 is much better than my old Pioneer DV-C503. Wow, I couldn't believe the sound difference. Soundstage opened up, detail, bass punch, just about everything sounded better. How could the sound coming from the two players be so much different being I was using the optical output on both units bypassing CD players DAC? Could it be that the PS3 is a SACD player? On the hunt for a new CD player now! I hate this hobby, NOT. I'm looking at the DVP NS900V you recommended.
     
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2019 at 7:13 AM
  4. robert_kc

    robert_kc AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    895
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    OP: I've just skimmed this thread. It is not my intent to go off topic. With that said, since you listen to classical music, I thought I'd share the following. (I listen almost exclusively to classical music.)

    Classical music lovers often must decide which is more important: performance quality, or audio quality of a recording. I’m not a music scholar, and I’m not hyper-critical of a performance. However, I have no tolerance for poor audio quality.

    The availability of true hi-res (e.g., 24bit/192kHz PCM, or DSD) recordings varies by music genre. By “true hi-res” I mean recordings with hi-res provenance, i.e., originally recorded and mastered in hi-res - NOT Redbook CD (16bit/44.1kHz) converted to a FLAC file.

    All new classical music recordings are recorded and mastered in hi-res, and almost all are available in a hi-res consumer deliverable (i.e., SACD, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray or hi-res download). And I find that these usually have excellent audio quality, and I enjoy them immensely. Moreover, modern classical recordings almost always offer surround-sound (in addition to a stereo track), and sometimes have hi-def video. Video is essential to ballet and opera (i.e., these are visual art forms in addition to music), and IMO video is very enjoyable for classical concerts. And Blu-ray is capable of displaying an opera’s libretto on the screen, which is extremely useful. And Blu-ray has much greater storage capacity compared with the same size CD disc. (Fewer discs are required to deliver classical box sets.) Bottom line, newer technologies have capabilities that CDs can’t deliver.

    My favorite format for classical music is Blu-ray audio/video. (A few Ultra HD Blu-ray videos are becoming available.) My second choice are hi-res audio-only recordings that feature surround-sound (i.e., SACD, Pure Audio Blu-ray). My third choice is stereo 24/96 or 24/192 FLAC downloads.

    I'm not a technical expert. My understanding is that hi-res generally cannot be sent though TOSLINK or coax. My understanding is that if you want to use an external DAC to play hi-res recordings (and not have the audio down-sampled), you'd need an HDMI interface. There are a few HDMI DACs, Very few are multi-channel.

    FWIW, I use Oppo universal players (UDP-205, BDP-105, or BDP-95) that can decode any digital recording. The Oppo UDP-205 has built-in high-quality multi-channel DACs, "pre-amp" functionality including selectable downmixing (e.g., 7.1, 5.1, 5.0, 2.1, 2.0), bass management (i.e., configurable subwoofer crossover and RCA line-level connection), and remote volume control. You can play any hi-res recording through the Oppo's analog RCA line-level connections. (And you can connect a Chromecast Audio to the Oppo via TOSLINK in order to play streaming services.) I connect vintage tube amps directly to the Oppo. I have one stereo system, two 2.1 systems, and one multi-channel system.

    I hope this isn't off topic. I just thought I'd suggest that if you get a player that only plays CDs, you're restricting your choices for classical recordings. And if you're only comparing streaming services with CDs, you not considering state-of-the art audio (and video) technology. I'm not knocking streaming services - I trialed Spotify Premium for several months. Streaming services offer access to an enormous library of music. But IME/IMO there are higher quality ways to enjoy classical recordings.

    Hope this helps.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  5. Lossless

    Lossless Active Member

    Messages:
    272
    Location:
    backwoods
    Thanks for your input. I thought the same thing about a CD player vs a DVD or BluRay SACD player. I use Tidal as my streaming service and they lack classical music in any format other than 44.1 / 16bit CD quality. Tidal has MQA 192khz/24bit format that sounds great but lacks classical music in that format. I have a large collection of classical CDs and I have been looking at an older BluRay player that is SACD capable and won't be beyond my financial means. I have been looking at Sony's BDP-S1 BluRay player just for audio. It was Sony's TOTL in 2007. Made in Japan. I can easily pick one of these up for $50 shipped. It has all the outputs you could ever need. That's the direction I'm headed. Any input welcome. Thanks
    https://hometheaterhifi.com/volume_14_2/sony-bdp-s1-blu-ray-player-5-2007-part-1.html
    5C57EC7B-6CFC-4819-97C6-1AC18960237A.png 735F8EA3-12C8-4EB3-B170-D5666C977820.png

    Edit : The Sony BDP-S1 Blu Ray is not CD or SACD capable.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  6. Audiofreak71

    Audiofreak71 Boerboelicious Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,363
    Location:
    PNW
    I’ve actually ran across quite a few classical with Mqa the only thing is with Tidal they still don’t have there search algorithm down pat so more than likely if you type in say Mqa classical it might only come up with one thing or if you type classical Mqa nothing comes up but if you type in classical music and look for the ones with Mqa you may run across much more . Qobuz on the other hand has a much better search feature imo, but there are Mqa classical albums just an fyi.

    Audiofreak71
     
    Lossless likes this.

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  7. robert_kc

    robert_kc AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    895
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    A few quick comments - I'm on the run ...

    I have no experience with Sony's BDP-S1. According to wikipedia: "The player is not compatible with any audio disc format, as a BD-only drive is used. However, playback of Compact Discs (CD) is possible when using the Asia-Pacific version of the BDP-S1, known as the BDP-S1E. A re-branded version of the BDP-S1E with CD playback capability was later released in North American region, with the model number, BDP-S2000ES. The player is capable of decoding Dolby Digital, Dolby Digital Plus,[N 1] Dolby TrueHD,[N 2] LPCM, and DTS core. Currently, the player is not capable of decoding DTS-HD High Resolution Audio or DTS-HD Master Audio." (As I said earlier, my favorite format is Blu-ray, which features DTS-HD MA 5.0.)

    I suggest that you buy a player that supports all of the formats you want.

    FWIW, an Oppo BDP-95 and BDP-105 support everything except Ultra HD Blu-ray. The UDP-205 supports everything, but since it's been discontinued, sellers are attempting to engage in price gouging. (The original retail price for the UDP-205 was $1300.) Not sure of your budget, but you might check eBay for a used BDP-105 or BDP-95.

    Have you read this thread? http://audiokarma.org/forums/index.php?threads/oppo-105d-vs-sony-ubp-x1000es.847645/ There is an open-box new Sony UBP-X1000ES on eBay for $425 (sold by Best Buy). If you don't need analog surround-sound outputs - only stereo - this unit sounds versatile - it plays almost everything including Ultra HD Blu-ray. I have no personal experience, but based on the referenced thread, I think the Sony UBP-X1000ES sounds like a great value for a universal player that supports analog stereo RCA connections.

    Will you use the DAC built into a universal player? If you intend to use an external DAC (which I do NOT recommend), note my comment above: "My understanding is that hi-res generally cannot be sent though TOSLINK or coax. My understanding is that if you want to use an external DAC to play hi-res recordings (and not have the audio down-sampled), you'd need an HDMI interface. There are a few HDMI DACs, Very few are multi-channel."

    FWIW, here's an example of what's available in modern Blu-ray:

    Rafael Frühbeck de Burgos Danish NSO​
    • Ludwig van Beethoven: Symphonies Nos. 1–9
    • Joaquín Rodrigo: Concierto de Aranjuez
    • Hector Berlioz: Symphonie fantastique, Op. 14
    • Richard Strauss: Eine Alpensinfonie (An Alpine Symphony), Op. 64, TrV 233
    [​IMG]


    I paid $50, which I think is a great value for this amount of hi-res audio/video music.

    There are similar Blu-ray audio/video box sets for several other composers that I can list if you'd like. Plus, of course, many opera and ballet Blu-ray. And countless SACDs, and a few Pure Audio Blu-ray discs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
    Audiofreak71 and Lossless like this.
  8. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    3,262
    All SACD players are not created equally. Back when the Sony DVP NS900V came on the market it's smaller brother the DVP NS500V was highly regarded when compared with the Rega Planet. Purchased the 500 and was underwhelmed, possibly my expectations were too high. For the next dozen yrs I kinda wrote off CD's, just kept buying records.

    Browsing eBay I see the 900 for $80, what do I have to lose. WOW, the difference was not subtle. I now have 3 of them plus the NS999ES, and CX777ES.

    Also have the Sony BPD-S6500, it's relegated to BluRay watching only. Its no match for the other 3 for 2 channel music only.

    Here they are next to each other lol. The weight of the cables keep trying to pull the BluRay off the back of the shelf.

    20190111_203146.jpg

    I have no experience with the unit your thinking about, let us know how it works out.
     
    Lossless likes this.
  9. SterlingOne

    SterlingOne Active Member

    Messages:
    147
    Here's a suggestion, since you're really into it: download a Seattle Symphony 5.1 multi-channel recording from Acoustic Sounds, like The Firebird, to a thumb drive. Insert in your OPPO's front usb port for gapless playback and hold on to your socks.
     
  10. PAGS

    PAGS AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,168
    Location:
    North of Philly
    Wow! The dude in plunging in time with the music I'm listening to (Bluegrass). LOL
     
  11. sunvalleylaw

    sunvalleylaw AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    418
    Location:
    Hailey, Idaho
    Some day I hope to have a good used Oppo. Or maybe that Sony DVP NS900V @Grenadeslio speaks of.
     

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  12. spark1

    spark1 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
    I am no expert either, but I know that coax supports "hi-res" audio (up to 24/192), at least in PCM form. I can't speak for DSD.
     
  13. Lossless

    Lossless Active Member

    Messages:
    272
    Location:
    backwoods
    I'm bidding on a Sony DVP NS500V now. Hopefully It finds me.Does the DVP NS500V have good analog sound? How about the S/PDIF, does it support SACD through digital outputs?
     
  14. robert_kc

    robert_kc AK Subscriber Subscriber

    Messages:
    895
    Location:
    Midwest USA
    The support for hi-res via coax and TOSLINK probably varies by player.

    Here's what the Oppo UDP-205 User Manual states:
    • Due to bandwidth limitations, high resolution audio formats such as Dolby Digital Plus, Dolby TrueHD, DTS-HD High Resolution and DTS-HD Master Audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. A reduced resolution version of the same audio track will be output instead. To listen to high resolution audio formats in their best quality, please use the HDMI connection if you have a receiver that handles HDMI audio (see page 12) or use the multi-channel analog outputs if you do not (see page 15).
    • Due to copyright restrictions, SACD audio cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to SACDs, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.
    • Due to copyright restrictions and bandwidth limitations, full resolution audio from DVD-Audio discs cannot be sent through the coaxial or optical digital audio output. To listen to DVDAudio in full resolution, please use the HDMI or analog audio connections.
    I've read that there was a specific firmware release of a Sony PS3 that had a "security hole" that allowed SACD to play through coax. And I've read that there are "hacks" (via software code) that allow certain players to output SACD via coax. But generally you can't output the SACD layer of an SACD via coax or TOSLINK. And you can't play the SACD layer of an SACD via a PC. (The CD layer of a hybrid SACD is a different story.)

    Bottom line - I'd read the owner's manual for a specific player to determine its capabilities and limitations.

    The safe bet is to use a universal player's built-in DAC. I bought the "audiophile grade" Oppo universal players (UDP-205, BDP-105, BDP-95) because they arguably have "audiophile grade" DACS and analog circuitry. I can connect vintage tube amps directly to an Oppo, drop a disc into the tray, and hit the "PLAY" button. This provides a simple and reliable way to enjoy state-of-the-art digital audio (stereo and multi-channel) and video.
     
  15. spark1

    spark1 Super Member

    Messages:
    1,756
    Location:
    The Great Midwest
    Not all devices have coax connections. But for those that do, the coax connection will support up to 24/192 PCM files. I was only addressing your earlier claim that coax does not reliably pass "hi-res" music files. It most certainly does.
     
    Last edited: Jan 12, 2019
  16. Audiofreak71

    Audiofreak71 Boerboelicious Subscriber

    Messages:
    2,363
    Location:
    PNW
    I have to agree with @spark1 on this one . I use coax from my Oppo to my Tri-Vista Dac using analog connections and I have plenty of DVD Audio discs and streaming HiRez that I play with no issues and sounds much better than using Hdmi which imo sounds horrible for 2ch listening compared to a good pair of interconnects.

    Audiofreak71
     

     

    Please register to disable this ad.

  17. SterlingOne

    SterlingOne Active Member

    Messages:
    147
    I don't understand your post: you say first you use coax from OPPO to Tri-Vista DAC, then you say you use analog connections. If you are using coax connections that's a digital connection.
     
  18. cpt_paranoia

    cpt_paranoia Super Member

    Messages:
    1,085
    RCA is also coax... The same connector type is often used.

    I'm going to guess that the 'analog' RCA connection is to distinguish from optical. But still digital.
     
    SterlingOne likes this.
  19. SterlingOne

    SterlingOne Active Member

    Messages:
    147
    It's better communication I suppose to refer to a consumer digital connection being IEC 958, or Toslink S/PDIF.
     
  20. Grenadeslio

    Grenadeslio Super Member

    Messages:
    3,262
    If memory serves the 500V was $279 new, I hope it serves your needs.
     

Share This Page