Net Streams vs. CD's

[sunvalleylaw]

For right now, I am just going to use the Sony Blue Ray I have, which I guess supports SACD, and seems to sound pretty ok for now. I am building other aspects of the rebuilt system up first. Along the way, I can stash some money aside for a similar OPPO, or a Sony that also will do Blu-Ray, when the time comes.

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Net streams DO NOT sound better than CD!

They can sound better than CD.

A streaming player with a great DAC, streaming the same data as that on the CD, will sound better than a poor CD player with a poor DAC.

Likewise, a great CD player with a great DAC will sound better than a streaming player -- streaming the same data as that on the CD -- with a poor DAC.

Given the same 44.1khz/16bit Red Book CD data in either case, sound differences in streaming compared to playing a CD -- assuming the CD player transport is working correctly -- are solely dependent on the quality of the DAC (including its power supply, shielding, etc.)

In other words, there isn't anything inherent in streaming to make it sound worse, or inherent in CD players to make them sound better. CDs and streaming are just different ways of obtaining the same digital data.

 

[Lossless]

They can sound better than CD.

A streaming player with a great DAC, streaming the same data as that on the CD, will sound better than a poor CD player with a poor DAC.

Likewise, a great CD player with a great DAC will sound better a streaming player -- streaming the same data as that on the CD -- with a poor DAC.

Given the same 44.1khz/16bit Red Book CD data in either case, sound differences in streaming compared to playing a CD -- assuming the CD player transport is working correctly -- are solely dependent on the quality of the DAC (including its power supply, shielding, etc.)

In other words, there isn't anything inherent in streaming to make it sound worse, or inherent in CD players to make them sound better. CDs and streaming are just different ways of obtaining the same digital data.

I my case my Asus Xonar Essence XT, which is a great PC DAC, still doesn’t sound as good as my Oppo CD player DAC, except on 192kHz- 24bit streaming material, but the latter isn’t a fair comparison. The sampling rate and bit depth are different between the two sources. Now CD quality 44.1kHz-16bit material seems to sound more open with better imaging on my Oppo player. Does streamed digital material lose any fidelity because the way the some providers output their material in FLAC vs PCM, or is it just the two different DACs?

One other question which may be a little off topic. How can different CD players playing music via Toslink to the same DAC using the same type of audio cables sound noticeably different? I always thought they should sound identical because both players are supposingly sending the same data stream to the external DAC which is doing the decoding.

What do you mean when you say, “assuming the CD transport is working correctly?” Is that the electronics or the physical characteristic of the CD player, or both?

Sorry that’s three more questions.

 

[GChief]

What Dave said

 

[DaveVoorhis]

Now CD quality 44.1kHz-16bit streaming seems to sound more open with better imaging on my Oppo player. Does streamed digital material lose any fidelity because the way the provider outputs their material or is it just the two different DACs?

Probably just two different DACs, but it could also be different source material or expectation bias. Or some or all at once.

One other question which may be a little topic. How can different CD players playing music via Toslink to the same DAC using the same type of transmission cables sound noticeably different? I always thought they should sound identical because both players are supposingly sending the same data stream and the external DAC which is doing the decoding.

They'll be identical unless one of the CD players is having difficulty reading the CD. Then the player may interpolate the missing data, resulting in loss of high frequency information (if the error rate is relatively low) or dropouts (moderate error rate) or failure to play (high error rate). CD players may also differ in the amount of jitter in the digital stream, which may result in audible differences in the D/A conversion.

What do you mean when you say, “assuming the CD transport is working correctly?” Is that the electronics or the physical characteristic of the CD player, or both?

Both, either of which can result in failure to successfully read data from the disc -- forcing the player to interpolate missing data, as noted above.

 

[David_NC]

Can you suggest such a new Sony player please? Is something like this a possibility?
https://www.amazon.com/Sony-UBP-X70...d=1547403578&sr=1-4&keywords=sony+sacd+player

EDIT: I looked more closely and this one will obviously not work for me into vintage separates as analog output is not supported.

I was searching for a 'new' CD / SACD player for my two-channel system. Based on a good bit of forum research and what I could find locally, I settled on a Sony DVP-NS900V. I'm not sure how much they sell for on the auction sites, but mine was $50 from a Craigslist ad. It looks and works like new. The remote appears to have never been used. The unit feels solid, looks nice, is responsive, and sounds really good.
I also have an older Sony BDP-BX58 Blu-ray player in my HT system. It plays SACD's and outputs through HDMI. If I want stereo only, I use the 900V. If I want multichannel or video, I use the BX58.

 

[Soundork]

Wow,

I originated this thread, but did not expect to it last this long. I personally left it at around page three.

Going back to the original topic:

If anyone remembers, I shared that my favorite station is Venice Classic Radio ( www.veniceclassicradio.eu ). The web page and the standalone player offer Amazon links to the piece played at the moment. I have supported the station by following these links and buying the CD. This thread started by me reporting that the CD and the stream "sound different". Number of members speculated, but the most plausible explanation was that the station applies some form of processing.

I am happy to report that I know exactly what the difference is:

Today Venice Classic Radio played a piece that I know very well, not only, because it is one of my favorite classical performances ever, but I also own the CD. So I listened to the station and then played the CD, and discovered that only thing I had to do in order to match the sound of both media was to turn the treble knob to the right a little.

This is it.

Best

Soundork

P.S. Just as a reminder, I am using the CD drive of my workstation, the same one that I tune with to Venice Classic Radio. From there the bits go to the DAC via one of the USB ports and from the DAC to the receiver. This rules out any possible differences due to a standalone CD player.

 

[spark1]

Nice. You can make CD WAV files sound just as good as 320K lossy files (or 256K or 128K...whatever it is they are streaming) just by turning up the treble a bit. Who knew?

EDIT: Most info I've found for this particular radio station says they stream at 128K, altho I've also seen claims of 320K.

 

[imral3]

Treble knob to the right for both? Or one source only?

 

[Soundork]

Nice. You can make CD WAV files sound just as good as 320K lossy files just by turning up the treble a bit. Who knew?

I bet that in this particular instance the station source is a CD, Spark.

 

[Soundork]

Treble knob to the right for both? Or one source only?

I need to turn the treble knob to the right (somewhere between five and ten on a clock dial) when I play the CD to match what comes over the Net. No Idea what I am compensating for.

I normally listen with both bass and treble knobs right at twelve o'clock i.e. tone controls defeated.

 

[JoeESP9]

I'd be inclined to consider the CD as producing the more accurate rendition. Even 320K MP3's which are the highest resolution MP3's offer don't sound quite right to me. With lower MP3 resolutions IME it's quite easy to hear what's wrong. This is especially true with classical and opera.

Very few (if any) streaming radio stations use 320K MP3's. It's mostly 128K and a few 256K.

 

[imral3]

Venice Classic streams at 128 kbps FWIW. I too would think the CD would have a more detailed sound over the stream. No telling what the radio station is doing to the music, though.

 

[spark1]

I bet that in this particular instance the station source is a CD, Spark.

It may have originally been CD, but they are streaming compressed (lossy) files. They are not streaming WAV files, nor lossless files such as FLAC. Regardless of the station's source file, they are broadcasting, and you are downloading, lossy files (128K by most accounts, 320K at best).

 

[Soundork]

It may have originally been CD, but they are streaming compressed (lossy) files. They are not streaming WAV files, nor lossless files such as FLAC. Regardless of the station's source file, they are broadcasting, and you are downloading, lossy files (128K by most accounts, 320K at best).

I did not know that. Thank you for explaining it to me.

 

[Soundork]

Venice Classic streams at 128 kbps FWIW. I too would think the CD would have a more detailed sound over the stream. No telling what the radio station is doing to the music, though.

I guess it is my ears. Depending on the day I rotate between HK330c, 430 and 730 and they have the ability to resolve a lot of detail. Maybe it is the speakers. I like them, but they are just oversized bookshelves.

I dont know, but this time I have decided not to lose sleep over this...

 

[spark1]

All that matters is that you are satisfied with the sound. Enjoy!