Nichicon KZ Muse in the signal path

[SoundOfSound]

Has anybody used Nichicon KZ Muse in the signal path with good results. I'm going to be recapping a Rotel AVR and I was considering using these.

There are a bunch of Samwha 10uF/50V caps in signal path in the preamp. I was considering replacing them with the KZ 10uF/100V. The other choices would be the Silmic II or Nichicon FG 10uF/50V.

Just wondering what others have experienced with these caps good or bad.

Thanks!

 

[rottalpha]

The Muze series caps are some of the best audio caps ever made and rival the Elnas Silmic and Black Gates from Rubycon. It would definitely be an improvement over what was in the amp already, even if the amp was brand new.

 

[Hyperion]

+1 And stick with the same voltage replacements unless you have a good reason not to.

 

[c.coyle]

If you have room, you can get WIMA MKS2 polyester films in 10uf/50v, 5mm pin spacing, at Mouser. A little pricey, and larger than a comparable electrolytic, but some would say that a film is better in many aspects than any electrolytic. I'm using them in a Sansui AU777A.

 

[ConradH]

The effect of different caps is highly debatable and certainly circuit dependent, so only you can judge the results. If the 50V caps already have plenty of voltage margin, I'd keep using 50V caps. If they're in circuits very near 50V, then going to 63 or 100 could improve reliability and longevity. By 50V, you've already got the benefits of lower esr than lower voltage parts, so no technical reason to go higher. I try to use films whenever possible, but only if they fit well. Oversized caps shoehorned in awkward positions are too much of a hack. The Wima parts are some of the best.

 

[leesonic]

KLs (low leakage) should go in the signal path, unless you can squeeze some Wima films in there.

 

[ZOOM]

It will certainly not be an improvement, but it wouldn't not work, or make things worse. It's just a totally futile practice - a waste of time and money.

 

[SoundOfSound]

Wimas would be nice if they fit. The problem is being an AVR there are so many 10uF/50V in this thing I think the cost of the Wimas would be more than the receiver is worth.

The KZ is very affordable but they are only offered in 10uF/100V package for some reason. I'm hoping the bump up from 50V to 100V will not cause any problems.

It's a RSX 972. If you look at the schematic there are a crazy number of the 10uF/50V caps in there. I think even the Silmic IIs would add up rather quickly but maybe I could get a quantity discount.

http://elektrotanya.com/rotel_rsx-972_sm.pdf/download.html


The KZ line is very limited.
http://www.nichicon.co.jp/english/products/pdfs/e-kz.pdf

 

[roger2]

I have read in one thread that the leads on KZ caps were too large to fit through the holes. And I once bought KZ, Silmic II, and FG all in the same values just to compare them, and the leads on the KZ were indeed larger than the other two (can't recall what values, may have been 1/50). I don't know if this would be true for every uf/V value available.

Oilmaster did some testing on an LCRZ meter between KZ and a few others. His conclusion was that KZ tested best (Silimic II also very good). In this thread see posts 13, 14, 15, and 20 for his findings. The entire thread is very interesting though.

 

[SoundOfSound]

Good point, I think they will fit but I will double check.

Thanks for the links.

 

[pustelniakr]

Be careful with increasing working voltage on 'lytic caps. Sometimes 50v caps are used, in circuits of much lower voltage, because that is the way it is with lower capacitance values. You NEED enough voltage to keep the electrolyte formed, or you will have problems. The original manufacturers are benefited, by keeping the variety of part numbers to a dull roar. Lower capacitance values have lower risk to issues related to electrolyte formation. So, you will frequently see 50v, 1uF caps used in 10v circuits. Further increasing of voltage headroom could be detrimental, depending upon manufacturer specifications for the caps being used.

When choosing inter-stage coupling caps, leakage is one of the dominant factors, as relating to noise. I would use a cap that is specifically designated as "low leakage" as an inter-stage coupling cap. Films are more expensive, and larger, but better in this application. Aluminum electrolytics are subject to all kinds of non-ideal drifts. Whatever cap type you use, make sure it does not tend to be micro-phonic (changes in response to vibration), or you will hear it.

Be careful out there,
Rich P

 

[eizner23]

C

It's just a totally futile practice - a waste of time and money.

Come on man. Can you backup your claim? If not stop saying this. Are the hundreds of members upgrading their units really wasting their resources? I doubt it.

 

[Robert2017]

Has anybody used Nichicon KZ Muse in the signal path with good results. I'm going to be recapping a Rotel AVR and I was considering using these.

There are a bunch of Samwha 10uF/50V caps in signal path in the preamp. I was considering replacing them with the KZ 10uF/100V. The other choices would be the Silmic II or Nichicon FG 10uF/50V.

Just wondering what others have experienced with these caps good or bad.

Thanks!

Using Nichicon KZ, SILMIC and Cerafines can add huge benefit . But the problem is how you mix the caps .
For example if you use only KZs the sound will become to good but boring so you will need to add some Silmic and Cerafines .
Now the big problem is how you mix the brands what you place where .
Silmic 2 wont work great for power supply and I use Silmic only up to 47 uf so up to 47 uf I mix Silmic with KZ in the region that is closest to power transistors and signal path.
In the regions that are far away from power transistors up to 47 uf I use all 3 Silmic , Cerafine amd KZs
Beyond 47 uf I use only Cerafine and KZ.
Cerafine will sound a little distorted , nasty but more 3D compared to KZ .
Cerafines are necessary evils . They can add flavor and space to sound or they can ruin the sound so you should be very careful usually you put 1 or 2 in signal path or you don't but you will need Cerafines in different places .
Is esoteric science but is true is not a myth ..

 

[pskaudio]

Using Nichicon KZ, SILMIC and Cerafines can add huge benefit . But the problem is how you mix the caps .
For example if you use only KZs the sound will become to good but boring so you will need to add some Silmic and Cerafines .
Now the big problem is how you mix the brands what you place where .
Silmic 2 wont work great for power supply and I use Silmic only up to 47 uf so up to 47 uf I mix Silmic with KZ in the region that is closest to power transistors and signal path.
In the regions that are far away from power transistors up to 47 uf I use all 3 Silmic , Cerafine amd KZs
Beyond 47 uf I use only Cerafine and KZ.
Cerafine will sound a little distorted , nasty but more 3D compared to KZ .
Cerafines are necessary evils . They can add flavor and space to sound or they can ruin the sound so you should be very careful usually you put 1 or 2 in signal path or you don't but you will need Cerafines in different places .
Is esoteric science but is true is not a myth ..

This is a topic with much controversy. Ideally the Wima MKS-2 are the best choice, but the cost can become prohibitive. I've used the KZ for signal coupling with excellent results. True for the Silmic II, but the Cerifines I don't care for much. It is near impossible to figure out how something will sound before the change is made. With the KZ you're getting a high quality cap with low DF. The aforementioned KL are also quality with low DF and available in far more values than the KZ. Rotel doesn't cheap out on their components most of the time, but the Samwhas are definitely a comprimise.

 

[Robert2017]

This is a topic with much controversy. Ideally the Wima MKS-2 are the best choice, but the cost can become prohibitive. I've used the KZ for signal coupling with excellent results. True for the Silmic II, but the Cerifines I don't care for much. It is near impossible to figure out how something will sound before the change is made. With the KZ you're getting a high quality cap with low DF. The aforementioned KL are also quality with low DF and available in far more values than the KZ. Rotel doesn't cheap out on their components most of the time, but the Samwhas are definitely a comprimise.

Recently I recapped my NAD 306 .
First I used only KZs everywhere and the sound was so transparent and clean that it was boring and platonic .
I started playing with different combinations targeting different areas .
Now I;m so glad I didn't give up and that I learned so much .
Some will say that caps brand and quality don't matter but the shocking fact is that only the opposite is true .
The sound quality lies in the caps placing strategy game.

 

[pskaudio]

Recently I recapped my NAD 306 .
First I used only KZs everywhere and the sound was so transparent and clean that it was boring and platonic .
I started playing with different combinations targeting different areas .
Now I;m so glad I didn't give up and that I learned so much .
Some will say that caps brand and quality don't matter but the shocking fact is that only the opposite is true .
The sound quality lies in the caps placing strategy game.

Just for fun I checked out the NAD 306 schematic and there are a number of coupling caps. No argument regarding the KZ, I've always noticed they lean to the "cooler" side sonically. Especially in preamps, IC based circuits with limited current output, one type of cap may sound great, but not with a discrete stage. Output caps in CD players, sometimes it's KZ, other times Silmic or the NCC AWF series.
You sound like you've tried a number of different combinations and when there are multiple caps, I completely agree, balancing out the overall sound is best. I feel they all have their strengths and weaknesses. Even the Black Gates were not always the best choice. There is something distinctive about the BG sound. Can't put my finger on it, but I can always hear it.
Have you ever tried the Panasonic "puresim"?

 

[Robert2017]

Black Gate I think is best on the preamp main caps or power amp main caps . I'm not speaking about the amp main large psu caps .
I have 2 BG having 25v 1000uf in a amp and there is nothing that can come close .
I have no experience with Panasonic "pureism".
I 'm planing to try Kaisei if I buy a new amp.

 

[patfont]

I use the following (in the signal path) depending on location/function and space:

Silmic II
Nichicon FG
Nichicon KW
Nichicon KL
Wima MKS2
Wima MKS4

KZ, don't ever use em

 

[Robert2017]

I use the following (in the signal path) depending on location/function and space:

Silmic II
Nichicon FG
Nichicon KW
Nichicon KL
Wima MKS2
Wima MKS4

KZ, don't ever use em

but KZ is rated above Nichicon FG Nichicon KW Nichicon KLso why don't you use them ?

 

[patfont]

but KZ is rated above Nichicon FG Nichicon KW Nichicon KLso why don't you use them ?

Well "KA" is at top of Nichacon "audio grade" chart but they do not sound good in the signal path IMO. (In fact they sound horrible!)
As in your 1st post I would go with Silmic II or Nichicon FG can't go wrong with either.
KL has use in certain situations and locations specified by Pioneer and some other manufactures where a "low leakage" cap would be preferred.
Again all depends on unit you are installing in, and fit, form, and function.