Phono vs. CD output level.

[62vauxhall]

I have a few CD players with a variable output so matching signal levels was easy with those. But, the player I chose to use because it sounds best to me has a fixed output level. I was not keen on spending the price required for inline attenuators so I made one. A friend more knowledgeable than I gave me a simple schematic to follow. I "ballparked" the amount of signal reduction at 25% and wired what few components were indicated. Housing was a metal project box with 4 RCA jacks I attached to it.

 

[iLUVanalog]

5MV is nothing.

Tonar has a DJ cart you can buy right now with 8MV of output.

Shure has a recently discontinued model with over 9MV of output - you can still get it if you look around.

Goldring 1000 and 2000 series are spec'd at 6.5MV.

Some Ortofon 2Ms are spec'd at 5.5MV but actually measure hotter, like 8MV+.

Excuse me...but 5mV is NOT “nothing”. Think before you write.

 

[vwestlife]

I believe older CD players have higher than normal line-level output level because the idea was that since digital audio has so much dynamic range, the average audio levels recorded on a CD would be well below 0 dB full scale. Of course we all know things didn't work out that way...

 

[fiddlefye]

I believe older CD players have higher than normal line-level output level because the idea was that since digital audio has so much dynamic range, the average audio levels recorded on a CD would be well below 0 dB full scale. Of course we all know things didn't work out that way...

No kidding. Too bad that so many CDs weren't mixed to take advantage of the incredible S/N ratio. I do have quite a few that do (mostly classical) and the end result is often finding a level that allows for reasonable listening to the quiet passages only to be blown right out of the room when things hit top end.

 

[rothwellaudio]

Excuse me...but 5mV is NOT “nothing”. Think before you write.

While 5 millivolts isn't nothing, it's nothing compared to the 8 megavolts of the Tonar cartridge refered to

 

[JJCalvillo]

Isn't there also a tape loop? Usually in that era there was at least an AUX input and another for tape.

Actually, after checking, you're right. There's a tape monitor with ins/outs that aren't occupied. I take the fifth!

 

[fiddlefye]

Actually, after checking, you're right. There's a tape monitor with ins/outs that aren't occupied. I take the fifth!

On you go then! Same as using the AUX input, though you might want to check on how good the contacts in the switch are at this point. If it hasn't been used for awhile a bit of cleaning might not go amiss!

 

[patient_ot]

Excuse me...but 5mV is NOT “nothing”. Think before you write.

It is nothing compared to truly high output cartridges, some examples which were given. Think before YOU WRITE and make a CLAIM based on not doing your homework. Jeeeez.

 

[JJCalvillo]

Hey guys, can't we all just get along.

 

[Lavane]

For me, the difference between two CDs can be as large as the difference between phono and CD, so what good is trying to get every input the same?

The signal from your turntable is already boosted - you just have to attenuate it less. By turning the volume knob clockwise.

Yes, it is a fact of life, and old fogeys like me are totally used to it. It only bothers those new to vinyl, for the most part. But so often we could use a sticky thread to link to, for the near-daily ask.

The one CD player I have has a really hot output for some reason. With all the other sources the difference isn't that bad. But with it I always have to drop my gain controls on the preamp just to have some range of motion with the master volume control. I agree with most sources the difference isn't a problem. I tend to drop the volume when switching between inputs. But having the volume blasting at only three clicks of the volume control is a problem.

 

[Lavane]

I have a few CD players with a variable output so matching signal levels was easy with those. But, the player I chose to use because it sounds best to me has a fixed output level. I was not keen on spending the price required for inline attenuators so I made one. A friend more knowledgeable than I gave me a simple schematic to follow. I "ballparked" the amount of signal reduction at 25% and wired what few components were indicated. Housing was a metal project box with 4 RCA jacks I attached to it.

I was going to do the same thing, but laziness set in. It's easy enough to do though.

 

[fiddlefye]

I use attenuators on the output from my DAC as it is pretty hot compared to my other sources. Works fine.

 

[WaynerN]

I have to remember to turn down the volume if I start playing CDs after LPs. Have a Grado Blue or Green on a Denon DP-30L going into a Marantz 2215B. On the CD side I have a Marantz CD-67SE to a Schiit Mimby, to the Marantz Aux. Everything comes out of Canton Karat 300s.

So is the signal difference a fact of life or is there anything you can do to boost the signal from the table?

I don't think it's a setup problem or equipment not functioning correctly.

You should always turn your volume off whenever turning the system off or switching sources. It's the easy, safe way.

 

[twiiii]

Some CD players have variable output so you can get a closer match. Modern preamps and integrated units allow you to change the gain of In puts to get a closer over all match. The problem with CD's is the POP CD's are overly compressed and recorded at levels right up to the tipping point . Where classical albums and others are recorded with 10 to 15 db less level to allow for truthful dynamics. If you you have a wide landscape of music you like you are in for lots of frustration. Telarc and Reference Recordings are recorded at much lower average levels than other brands because they want to attempt to keep the dynamics faithful.

 

[freQ(*)Oddio]

https://www.schiit.com/products/sys

this is $49. everyone should own one. you are simply thinking in the wrong direction and falling for the extra juice its not made for, The cd signal is too high, the phono signal is correct. Plug this in and it gives 2 options for inputs with a switch and volume control to reduce and match levels on vintage preamps and receivers.

 

[JJCalvillo]

https://www.schiit.com/products/sys

this is $49. everyone should own one. you are simply thinking in the wrong direction and falling for the extra juice its not made for, The cd signal is too high, the phono signal is correct. Plug this in and it gives 2 options for inputs with a switch and volume control to reduce and match levels on vintage preamps and receivers.

Practically, is a "too high" CD signal a bad thing? I mean, is there some harm to the 2215B or speakers?

 

[freQ(*)Oddio]

Practically, is a "too high" CD signal a bad thing? I mean, is there some harm to the 2215B or speakers?

no , its fine , too much could cause distortion, but if it still sounds clear its ok.

 

[Gibsonian]

I always as Wayner does reduce volume to zero anytime source is switched or the disc or tape is changed, it's just habit so if you have this going you never have to deal with the change so abruptly.

And I do wish the other inputs were same or more similar as phono input, you would get to use more of the volume rotation and maybe even some gain from the preamp. The phono is more correct or better input level than the rest, and benefits from it imo. When my phono gets as hot overall as say the CD input, the sound suffers in my system. Time to adjust the gain structure in this case.

 

[4-2-7]

Thanks for the response. I figured it was the nature of the beast, but hoped there was something to boost phono. I like the CD signal, I wish the phono signal would emulate it's cousin.

I don't prescribe to reducing a digital input to match a phono input using line attenuators and or switch volume controls. Think of it this way, the shortest path for the signal is the best, the more switching and filters your signal goes through, the more it's degraded. Systems overall output performance will also suffer doing this, in other words it will not play as loud reducing all the input gain.

However depending on your vinyl front end components you choose, gain volume can match or even be better than a digital input. This is where learning about cartridges and staging comes into play and experimenting with different components.

Marantz 2215
Power output: 15 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
Frequency response: 15Hz to 50kHz
Total harmonic distortion: 0.9%
Damping factor: 45
Input sensitivity: 1.8mV (MM), 180mV (line)
Signal to noise ratio: 77dB (line)

Input sensitivity has a huge discrepancy in line & phono, and can be overcome with cartridge choices and better staging.

 

[JJCalvillo]

I don't prescribe to reducing a digital input to match a phono input using line attenuators and or switch volume controls. Think of it this way, the shortest path for the signal is the best, the more switching and filters your signal goes through, the more it's degraded. Systems overall output performance will also suffer doing this, in other words it will not play as loud reducing all the input gain.

However depending on your vinyl front end components you choose, gain volume can match or even be better than a digital input. This is where learning about cartridges and staging comes into play and experimenting with different components.

Marantz 2215
Power output: 15 watts per channel into 8Ω (stereo)
Frequency response: 15Hz to 50kHz
Total harmonic distortion: 0.9%
Damping factor: 45
Input sensitivity: 1.8mV (MM), 180mV (line)
Signal to noise ratio: 77dB (line)

Input sensitivity has a huge discrepancy in line & phono, and can be overcome with cartridge choices and better staging.

Wonderful post. I understand the cartridge output side of the equation, but not sure what you mean by staging.

I was using a Denon DRA-425R when I got a cartridge for a DP-30L that had been sitting for years. So the equation changed with the Marantz. I'm guessing the lower Marantz sensitivity was enough to notice when I switched receivers. Time to research cartridges.

The Denon specs are:
Input sensitivity: 2.5mV (MM), 150mV (line)