Picked up Philharmonic II, some questions, is it FM stereo?

[little-al]

I just picked up a Fisher Philharmonic II that is in very good condition.

Is the "Provincial" model you can see here:

http://www.fisherconsoles.com/philharmonic II.html


The tuner seems to work well, but the turntable is going to need some work to get it going well again. The cabinet is in very good to fine shape, with some minor water marks and dings typical for its age, but overall shows well. I think it will clean up very nicely. And the wicker speaker covers are perfect.

It fires up and pulls in AM(OK) and FM(well) stations, and plays remarkably loud for being the baby Fisher console. I'll be recapping it, etc before putting into regular service though.


So, I looked through some other Philharmonic threads here, but have a few questions.

1) Is this model stereo for both the tuner and turntable?

I assume that the turntable is stereo as it has a L/R lead and the pre/amplifier is a two channel system (P-22 chassis) . But the link at the Fisher Console site mentions that this model could be ordered without the FM multiplexer for $50 less. And the P-22 chassis on this one does have an empty "MPX out" jack, and the face/tuner has no indicators for FM stereo. So I wonder if the FM tuner output on this one is just dual mono? Or maybe MPX it is built into the chassis? Not sure.

2) If it is just mono, could it easily be converted/upgraded to FM stereo?

If so by just adding the MPX unit, I wonder how that wires back into the P-22 chassis for stereo FM output. It seems clear that this model was meant to support FM stereo, so I would think it would plug in cleanly versus a hack. There is not MPX empty plate on this chassis like some of the older mono to stereo upgradable tuners.

3) If this is just mono, I wonder if factory FM stereo Philharmonic IIs had a stereo indicator up on the tuner face anywhere or not? Again this one has no such indicator, no magic eye, nuthin.


So, anyone know more about this model that could shine a light on these questions.

If it is already FM stereo, all are essentially moot questions of course.


I'll tinker with it some more to see what I can find out. We've only had it in the house for a couple hours at this point so I'm still investigating :tongue:

Thanks,
Al

 

[little-al]

Mpx-70?

Well, reading through the pinned MPX thread:

http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=412418


In the very first post I see the following quoted:

Fully anticipating the advent of FM-Stereo-Multiplex, Fisher engineers have included facilities for multiplex conversion in all Fisher stereophonic radio-phonographs. Owners of the Fisher Philharmonic II (P-25), Custom Electra V (E-46), Futura III (F-50), and Ambassador IV (A-60) can easily convert to multiplex by adding the Fisher MPX-70 adaptor. The Executive VII (Model 990) and President VII (Model 7000) are already equipped to receive multiplex stereophonically. All other models can be converted for stereophonic reception of FM-Stereo-Multiplex by the addition of the MPX-100 Universal, the MPX-200, and for some, the MPX-50. Inquire from your Fisher dealer which model to get.

So, if that is correct, I would need/see an MPX-70 in my chassis which I can confirm I do not. So I would assume at this point that the unit is playing dual mono AM/FM from the tuner at this point?

Interestingly, I then wonder how one would hook the MPX-70 back into the P-22 chassis "seamlessly". I would hate to think one would have to run it through the "Aux" ports as that seems a bit unclean.

Any one have experience with this scenario on a Philharmonic II?

Al

 

[gadget73]

It should be playing mono through both channels, yes. I don't see a hole in the chassis where the MPX chassis would go either so its not a simple matter to just plug one in.

Not really sure the easiest way to tie this in. It looks like it may have the MPX out jack down there at the bottom, near the output transformer. You should be able to feed that to an MPX unit, and back in somewhere. You may be stuck with the aux jack if it doesn't have an MPX position that has an input. Where you'd have trouble is if the selector switch was wired in such a way that it shut off power to the tuner section when not in FM mode.

I'm not super familiar with Fishers, but if the SpaceExpander jacks are ahead of the volume control, I expect you could use those. It would require an MPX unit that has an input that it switches to when the MPX is shut off. My Trio has that sort of thing, shut it off and you have a standard input. In your case, you'd wire the expander out jacks to the L and R inputs on the MPX unit, and the output from the MPX goes to the expander in jacks on the chassis. In FM mode, you turn on the MPX adapter and get stereo. In other modes, you shut the MPX unit off, the signal bypasses it, and everything works normally.

In theory anyway

 

[larryderouin]

If your MPX jack is not being used, FM is MONO.

I see the Phono/AUX inputs on the Left, the MPX output in the center. What are the empty jacks on the extreme right of the unit.

The mpx-200 instruction manual advises to use the AUX inputs from the mpx and set to AUX STEREO on the Philharmonic. The Philharmonic and Philharmonic II used the same chassis so I presume the instructions and such are the same.

You could use a MPX-100 or any other outboard mpx unit. I have a mpx 100 and a Sherwood that I use interchangably.

DO NOT USE THE SPACE EXPANDER JACKS! They are NOT set up like a normal pre-out/main in. You'd have to modify the circuit to actually use them as such, or as another input.

 

[little-al]

Pretty interesting then eh? If this was a factory option as suggested by the fisher console site and the quote from the MPX thread above, makes one wonder how this was engineered from the factory to not be an unclean add-on.

It would be neat if we can find someone with a Philharmonic II with this option already installed to see.

 

[little-al]

Thanks Larry, just saw your post....

 

[larryderouin]

You've got to remember that FM Multiplex was in it's infancy, and FISHER was doing add-on's to keep up with the trend. MPX wasn't fully integrated into consoles until the 1963 model year.

I just looked up the 1961 PHILHARMONIC P22 Service manual. It DOES have the MPX output on the tuner. So you can use that one on your '62. FISHERCONSOLES.com

 

[little-al]

Thanks guys.

To answer your question, the two jacks to the far right by the transformer are labeled "WS1 Speaker".

So with those included, the only open/unused jacks are:

- MPX Out single
- Aux In L/R pair
- WS1 Speaker A/B pair


So that just leaves the question of the turntable. Is it mono or stereo?

Again, I assume stereo given its dual output leads, but thought I'd ask.

Thanks,
Al


P.S.

As an aside, anyone have a shield tube for the 12ax7 on this chassis? It has gotten lost at some point. It appears to be the standard snap-on shield as used on other Fisher chassis.

 

[gadget73]

turntable ought to be stereo. Those existed for years before FM stereo did.

 

[larryderouin]

Verified stereo.

Most everything phono that fisher built from 1957-8 on was stereo.

 

[little-al]

Thanks!

Now I just need to find a new cartridge for the Garrard 209, and see if I can track down a new/NOS rubber idler wheel.

 

[larryderouin]

You might be able to get away with just a new stylus. Take a close look at the cartridge and note the manufacturer and model #, and go from there. Correct designation forthe turntable is RC-209. Owners and Service manuals @ www.vinylengine.com.

Check out www.thevoiceofmusic.com. He has an extensive array of idlers. They can either be rebuilds (they take the old one in trade, and strip all the rubber off and put new rubber on it to spec) or some of them you can get a wheel without the trade. The Garrard # for the idler wheel (they call it an intermediate wheel) is 53883
VOM replacement is 1479. $28.00 exch. $36.00 straight purchase.

 

[walyfd]

Congratz on your find! The TT is definitely stereo and probably came with a Pickering V15 cartridge and an elliptical stylus, not spherical. Replacement styli are also available from Gary at voiceofmusic. Personally, I think the elliptical is the way to go. Stanton replacements will also work in the Pickering.

Garrard made a lot of different changer models and every one of them suffer the same condition--dried grease. They're not impossible to restore yourself.

As for the MPX, I got a 200 but an MPX-70 would probably be just as good and a lot smaller. If your control switch has "MPX STEREO" option then you would use that and keep your "AUX" jacks free for something else. By '62, the FCC had approved MPX as the FM stereo carrier so manufacturers started adding a separate MPX switch.

 

[TheRed1]

The TT is definitely stereo and probably came with a Pickering V15 cartridge and an elliptical stylus, not spherical.

If I am remembering and interpolating correctly, I believe the early Philharmonics had Astatic cartridges as original equipment. These were high output ceramic/crystal (?) cartridges which didn't require the extra phono stage or RIAA EQ. (This was decidedly a cost-cutting measure present only on Fisher's entry-level console.)

Note the catalog does NOT use the word magnetic as it does in the descriptions of ALL of the other '62 console models - just the rather vague "StereoPlex" description. (Yes, it is definitely a stereo cartridge.) This means you will need to add a phono preamp if you intend to use a magnetic cartridge. It also means you can use your phono inputs as AUX inputs since they don't have the extra preamp stage or RIAA EQ.

 

[FauxHall]

I've see several MPX-100s and MPX-200s on the auction site as stand-alone chassis.

What's the difference? I'm considering one to upgrade my Curtis-Mathes FM console to stereo.

 

[gadget73]

Check out www.thevoiceofmusic.com. He has an extensive array of idlers. ....

I've had Gary at TVOM rebuild a couple for me, no complaints about the product or the service. I've also used Terry's Rubber Rollers with no complaints. NOS idler wheels for a 50+ year old changer don't really fill me with confidence.

 

[larryderouin]

MPX-100 is designed to be used outside the cabinet. MPX-200 is placed inside the cabinet. See the MPX Thread for pictures of each. http://www.audiokarma.org/forums/showthread.php?t=412418

Gadget; I've bought both trade in and straight from Gary and am pleased with both. Rubber was supple but firm and holds very well in the Garrards I've gotten them for.

Larry

 

[little-al]

It has a Sonotone 8T in it now.

Thanks for the tips so far. I've given Gary a call and will undoubtedly get a new idler from him. That is a great and affordable service :thmbsp:

Now to the question of the cartridge....

I took a photo of the cartridge currently installed, and not working, and it is a Sonotone 8T.

Now, I can't be certain that this Philharmonic II came from the factory with this cartridge, but that is what is in there now. Thoughts on originality or applicability before I buy a replacement?

Thanks
Al

 

[larryderouin]

I had a 8T in my 510 consolette and one of my RC-88's that came out of a FISHER. Changed it out for another ceramic in the 510 as the Sonotone was shot. I would think it was probably original. Fisher stuck with Pickering for their magnetics, and probably Sonotone/Astatic for the earlier ceramic's.

2 options. You can change out the 8t for another ceramic with a similar output. Make sure it's a 1/2" mount.

OR Get a Pickering V15 / ATE type and an outboard preamp.

If you have more sources you want to use, get a selector box, and plug in the sources to it, then output the selector to the AUX input. OR put the MPX into the AUX port and the selector box into the phono (it's line level and no RIAA circuit), and select sources from that. Gives you some options.

 

[walyfd]

I hadn't considered it was a ceramic cartridge but it does make sense. As for the MPX, the catalog page courtesy of Red, shows two models: the P25X (with mpx) and the P25 (without). So this must be the P25, however, wouldn't there be a "MPX STEREO" option on the function selector switch regardless of it being the 25 or 25X?

I was thinking this morning: when did Fisher begin providing MPX jacks on tuners and how much influence did Avery have in the passage of MPX as the approved FM stereo, being friends with the Kennedys...