Record Cleaning: Developing the Best Possible Methods

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Sounds like the 500mL bottle of the Triton X-100 is calling my name. I wonder if there is anyone in the SF Bay Area who would like to split a bottle. It sounds like it's enough for about 5 of us! o_O

With the Triton X-100 being just a surfactant, is the cleaning completely left up to the low percentage of isopropyl?
 
hi*ball, I just ordered a bottle from Amazon for 30 bucks I think. Wish I was closer, we'd split it.

Vince, could I just add 10 drops of this to a gallon of distilled, or do I need to make the solution like you mentioned (DON) because it doesn't keep well??
 
and finally Disteryldimethylammonium Chloride (a cationic detergent):
View attachment 650899

again, non polar tails, but a positively charged head (the ammonium group...Not shown is the balancing Cl- ion).This is a quaternary ammonium salt (four bonds on the N) or "Quat". These compounds have anti-static properties, mostly because they can hold water molecules at the surface and make it more conductive. If fact, this particular one is typically what you find in fabric softener and hair conditioner.
Then why not simply use just the conditioner as surfactant? Since the triboelectric property of vinyl is to develop a negative charge, a cationic surfactant seems to be the natural way to go. There's a fellow on another forum who's advocating the use of a 2-in-1 shampoo and among those who've tried it, all have given it great reviews.

I've been using Tergitols 3 & 9 for several years now and prefer it for it's low foaming action, but recently started adding methyl hydrate to the mix for it's cationic properties. The solution really does reduce the static charge initially, but the effect is only temporary, decreasing with each play.
 
Sounds like the 500mL bottle of the Triton X-100 is calling my name. I wonder if there is anyone in the SF Bay Area who would like to split a bottle. It sounds like it's enough for about 5 of us! o_O

With the Triton X-100 being just a surfactant, is the cleaning completely left up to the low percentage of isopropyl?
No, the triton is a detergent. Folks, in practice and in action, this is no different than dishwashing detergent...just without the charge group.
 
hi*ball, I just ordered a bottle from Amazon for 30 bucks I think. Wish I was closer, we'd split it.

Vince, could I just add 10 drops of this to a gallon of distilled, or do I need to make the solution like you mentioned (DON) because it doesn't keep well??
You'd neve get it to dissolve and hydrate properly. You have to mix it slowly first with a very small amount of water. You'll see when you start working with it. Also, don't refrigerate your stock solution....it will cloud up.
 
Then why not simply use just the conditioner as surfactant? Since the triboelectric property of vinyl is to develop a negative charge, a cationic surfactant seems to be the natural way to go. There's a fellow on another forum who's advocating the use of a 2-in-1 shampoo and among those who've tried it, all have given it great reviews.

I've been using Tergitols 3 & 9 for several years now and prefer it for it's low foaming action, but recently started adding methyl hydrate to the mix for it's cationic properties. The solution really does reduce the static charge initially, but the effect is only temporary, decreasing with each play.

Good question. You could, but generally they aren't as effective at solubilizing contaminants (they are weak detergents). You could come up with a mix of them and have a great product. I would never advocate 2-in-1 shampoos only because of all the moisturizers, perfumes, alcohols and salts they contain.
Hair conditioners often include moisturizers and botanicals to leave the hair with a coat of "oilyness" that was stripped out by the detergent. We don't want to add anything to vinyl. Since anionic detergents like SDS are "strong" detergents, you could wash with it and combine with a cationic detergent wash to neutralize and have a very effective system without the undesirable ingredients. It's simpler just to use a non-ionic detergent.
The idea of the neutral wash is not to introduce or promote static build up. It does not provide any long-term static solution. People forget that surfaces adsorb chemicals so that there will always be a thin film of whatever cleaning agent you use left on the record that is difficult to remove, even with rinsing.
 
I've used Vince's advice on enzymes before with good results.
Using a Spin Clean, which holds 24 oz in the tank (33.8 oz = 1 liter), I use 1 capsule of Nexazyme with the tank of water - no brushes. This is follow by a rinse, a Spin Clean bath of cleaning solution, then one more rinse with distilled water.

For a Spin Clean cleaning solution, I use the same as I do in my Ultrasonic cleaner, only with a smaller quantity of solution.

Spin Clean (24oz tank)
Water 19.2 oz/ fill line
99.9% Alcohol 4.8 oz http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0..._m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0RD4CAR98X5SP7B6E450
Ilfotol 6 ml http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/25041-REG/Ilford_1905162_Ilfotol_Wetting_Agent_Liquid.html
 
Good question. You could, but generally they aren't as effective at solubilizing contaminants (they are weak detergents). You could come up with a mix of them and have a great product. I would never advocate 2-in-1 shampoos only because of all the moisturizers, perfumes, alcohols and salts they contain.
Hair conditioners often include moisturizers and botanicals to leave the hair with a coat of "oilyness" that was stripped out by the detergent. We don't want to add anything to vinyl. Since anionic detergents like SDS are "strong" detergents, you could wash with it and combine with a cationic detergent wash to neutralize and have a very effective system without the undesirable ingredients. It's simpler just to use a non-ionic detergent.
The idea of the neutral wash is not to introduce or promote static build up. It does not provide any long-term static solution.

Excellent thread Vince!!! You have provided some valuable info to the community.

Silly question-Does anyone know what was used in the original Discwasher formula? I've just been using distilled water with my old discwasher brush.
 
I have used a wooded toothpick to remove hard junk locked into the record groove when normal cleaning failed. You can't dig too hard or the groove will be damaged but it beats tossing the record in the trash. I was surprised how easily I could feel the locked in junk with a toothpick.
 
Hi again Vince. This tread has some valuable information, thank you. I purchased some 99.5% titration grade Isopropyl. Don't know what they are checking it against to call it titration, but they do list the ppm of the impurities. My question has to do with the expiration date. Do I need to use it up before the date for record cleaning purposes? Also,any concern for Triton X-100 or Tergitol expiring?
 
Hi again Vince. This tread has some valuable information, thank you. I purchased some 99.5% titration grade Isopropyl. Don't know what they are checking it against to call it titration, but they do list the ppm of the impurities. My question has to do with the expiration date. Do I need to use it up before the date for record cleaning purposes? Also,any concern for Triton X-100 or Tergitol expiring?
No. The isopropanol will not go bad, just keep the lid tightly closed so it doesn't absorb water from the air or evaporate. You can keep it for years. The detergents can oxidize with time, but nothing to worry about for our uses. You can keep them for years as well, tightly closed and out of sunlight. You got some high grade stuff there! The "titration" label is just a grade, certified for use in titration experiments (its used to titrate fats). You'll also find IPA grade (for immunoprecipitation experiments), Molecular grade (for things like DNA precipitation) and others. These high grades are important in scientific experiments but not at all necessary for record cleaning. Just get the highest percent alcohol you can find at the best price.


Avfan: Great tip on using a toothpick. I've actually fixed a skip in a record before with a pin, but it wasn't pretty.

bhebble: I don't know what the original Dishwasher formula was, but remember they had a few D solutions. One was just water, and one was water with isopropanol. Another, D3 I think, had a surfactant, ethylene glycol, and sodium azide (preservative). We could dig around and probably find out, but I bet
Steve Chase knows and can chime in since his venture is to improve on their technologies. I know the new copies by RCA and the like simply provide distilled water. Remember that the original device was really only useful to spruce up clean records. It was never useful to clean the oldy moldy. Biggest problem is that there is no where for the grime to go except onto the brush, which is subsequently used to grind it into the next record. Yeah, you could remove large particles by reversing the pad bristle direction, but what about the oils, etc.? Solubilized contaminants need to be rinsed away. There's no getting around this. The Dishwasher is akin to using the same rag to wash tables in a restaurant. Eventually, your rag is dirtier than the table.
There is a role for DRY brushes (like the carbon fiber ones), as they can remove large dust and particles from previously cleaned records prior to playing. Once you go liquid, you need to remove what has been solubilized.
 
I just ran out to the barn to check what my wife uses to wash the horses. She uses a product called Orvus, sodium lauryl sulfate. It comes in a 7.5 pound jug and costs about $25.00. Sounds like that is what I should be using instead of the Dawn dish soap. 7.5 pounds should last me about 100 years and clean millions of records.
 
I have used a wooded toothpick to remove hard junk locked into the record groove when normal cleaning failed. You can't dig too hard or the groove will be damaged but it beats tossing the record in the trash. I was surprised how easily I could feel the locked in junk with a toothpick.

I usually just use my fingernail ... covered w/ a soft tea shirt to keep from marring the vinyl.

In my experience ... this works best when you can actually feel the obstruction (with your finger) ... however sometimes you can't always see it ... but it can work anyway.

I've scored some really pristine pressings from 60's & 70's this way ... folks would trade them in due to skips. Album below is the last record I used the fingernail trick on ... WOW! ... beautiful looking & sounding 1969 pressing (after fixing the skip).

Crosbystillsandnash.jpg
 
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These high grades are important in scientific experiments but not at all necessary for record cleaning. Just get the highest percent alcohol you can find at the best price.

When I figured out how much iso I needed, I purchased about 1 gallon ( 4 liter bottles ) At .19 cents per ounce, shipping included, ( $25 ), seemed great. I started mixing and realized I had a brain fart because I'll probably never use half of what I purchased.
 
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Hello everyone. I've missed a bit of the thread whilst working. Vincent, thank you for this great information and sharing your knowledge. I was wondering if it isn't posted already, what is the final answer for a formula. I'm thinking I'm starting from scratch and doing it differently. There's always room for improvement. I also wear suspenders and a belt....snort....this is what I was/am using I can see room for improvement.
Knosti Disco Antistat Record Cleaning Fluid


1/2 teaspoon Kodak Photo-Flo
Lysol Household cleaner 3 oz.
91% Isopropyl Alcohol 16oz.
Distilled water 109 oz.
 
Great information Vince thanks! Question I currently add a few drops of Jet Dry in the plastic ketchup squirt bottles I use. Which is then added to my water/alcohol mix as it really helps the water spread on the vinyl. I know you say the PH of that is very acidic but does the fact that it is diluted make it less so? :idea:
 
Great information Vince thanks! Question I currently add a few drops of Jet Dry in the plastic ketchup squirt bottles I use. Which is then added to my water/alcohol mix as it really helps the water spread on the vinyl. I know you say the PH of that is very acidic but does the fact that it is diluted make it less so? :idea:
Yes. pH is a measure of the concentration of H+ ions so the effect of dilution is easily calculated, especially since there are no buffering agents in just water and alcohol. pH is on a logarithmic scale so a ten fold dilution of pH 1 stock will essentially be around pH 2 and a hundred fold pH 3. This is still very acidic. So what is your dilution factor?
 
1/2 teaspoon Kodak Photo-Flo
Lysol Household cleaner 3 oz.
91% Isopropyl Alcohol 16oz.
Distilled water 109 oz.

You can do better Bear! Firstly, get rid of the Lysol. There's nothing in it that is good for your records. Your alcohol concentration is a little high, but still low enough that I wouldn't worry about it. You can replace the photoflo with a pure non-ionic detergent, do your records good, and save money in the process.
 
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