Record grading and your expectations

Johncan

Record collector
Question: when you buy an LP that is graded VG+, how much surface noise do you expect to hear, including pops, ticks, and crackle?

I have recently purchased several records from various dealers on Discogs that were all graded VG+ and they are all noisy with pops, ticks, and crackle. My VPI 16.5 and enzyme cleaner are not removing the crackle either. This is disappointing.
 
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Well John, I'v seen records that look M- V++ but sound crappy and if a seller is going by looks alone that's what you will get.

Now look at your records, how do they look?
V+ can have some smudging and light sleeve scuffs and a little bit of cover damage.

Now let me throw you another curve, not all stylus/cartridges play the record the same. Lets say a seller grades by playing them but his systems is really good and his cart and diamond profile doesn't pickup common noise. And now the record sells to someone that has a cartridge that picks up every bit of noise, is that going to be the sellers fault?
 
Question: when you buy an LP that is graded VG+, how much surface noise do you expect to hear, including pops, ticks, and crackle?

Lots. Unless you zero in on a particular seller who grades super-conservatively and consistently. There's a few in Bartertown like that.

Ebay-wise, I usually stick to Mint or EX and with sellers which I've experienced good results. I also always ask a new-to-me seller if you can hear any pops or clicks so you have some recourse.
 
My experience (and expectation) is that VG+ records will not have scratches that I can feel however there may be audible crackles and pops (after cleaning on my nitty gritty rcm) due to light scratches and less than ideal handling of record by previous owner(s).
 
I've bought records that are sold as "mint" by looks only, only to play them and sound like crap with tons of groove wear. On the other hand, I've bought and still have records that have plenty of hairline scratches that play perfectly with some background crackle, but to be honest I'd rather have a little crackle in the background than listen to ear piercing THHH's and SHHH's or the horrible grainy staticy noise that follows the vocals and high - mid's. Last week I bought a record from a seller on Discogs listed as "Near mint" only to get it covered in dust like it had never been cleaned and has plenty of distortion. My point being when you're buying a record without hearing it first you're at the mercy of the seller, no matter where you buy from. You need to trust that they've listened to it thoroughly on a decent system and graded it by ear. Not just looked at it and said "Like new, never played!" *I'm a little salty about that last record can you tell?* I've said it before and I'll say it again, buying records is a gamble, sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.
 
I've bought records that are sold as "mint" by looks only, only to play them and sound like crap with tons of groove wear. On the other hand, I've bought and still have records that have plenty of hairline scratches that play perfectly with some background crackle, but to be honest I'd rather have a little crackle in the background than listen to ear piercing THHH's and SHHH's or the horrible grainy staticy noise that follows the vocals and high - mid's. Last week I bought a record from a seller on Discogs listed as "Near mint" only to get it covered in dust like it had never been cleaned and has plenty of distortion. My point being when you're buying a record without hearing it first you're at the mercy of the seller, no matter where you buy from. You need to trust that they've listened to it thoroughly on a decent system and graded it by ear. Not just looked at it and said "Like new, never played!" *I'm a little salty about that last record can you tell?* I've said it before and I'll say it again, buying records is a gamble, sometimes you win, sometimes you loose.
Eastham, I agree with you 100%. Admittedly, most sellers of used records on Ebay admit they base their grading on VISUAL INSPECTION only! To me, that is absolutely ludicrous. You judge a photograph visually, NOT an audio source (record, CD or tape) that is made of easily damaged material. Also, about half of the new phonograph records I have purchased since 2015 (all 180 gram virgin vinyl, or "audiophile remasters" from Mobile Fidelity Sound Labs, etc.) have noise on them (background hiss, pops) and are certainly not flat. Many of my old original albums from the middle 1960's thru the middle 1980's are superior (and you didn't pay $20.00 and up for them either).
 
On a VG+ record, I expect a few crackles and pops, but definitely not in any overwhelming fashion. I have bought records (in physical stores) whose grade I couldn't even assess as the vinyl was all but invisible under massive blankets of dust, dog hair, etc. A few of those never came back to providing a pleasurable listening experience, but a surprising percentage ended up quieter than many a new record after going through the Spinclean. It's a crap shoot most of the time.

Here's my take: If I expect complete silence and absence of any noise from an album, I buy the CD. Surface noise is just part of the whole vinyl thing, and if someone tells me their records play absolutely, 100% quiet, I have my doubts (Personally, I'd be tempted to think they're either lying or have poorer hearing than I do, but who am I to judge).

Even on a Mint (new and sealed) record, I expect a few pops here and there. On a NM record, I might actually expect less surface noise, because it should have been cleaned properly. If a record that was sold to me as VG+ plays with lots and lots of noise even after going through the Spinclean, it will be reflected in the review I leave for the seller.

I hate it when sellers expect me to rather send the record back than leave a review that's 100% positive, because to me, that practice only perpetuates the epidemic of all-too-optimistic grading. I think there has to be self-correcting mechanism in place, in the sense that if a seller grades too much on the optimistic side, they should be called on it. Otherwise, they'll just continue the practice. Plus, no, I don't want to go through all that hassle of wrapping and shipping a record back to the seller. I don't mind the occasional surface noise, I just want them to be upfront about it from the beginning.

I grade my own records super-conservatively, and I expect others to do the same. So if a store owner (as has happened to me) replies to my question of whether I can take an opened and used record from from the 1980s out of its sleeve to examine it by saying, "don't even bother, the condition is Mint," I kinda wanna punch him. :whip:
 
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To listen to and grade records is a time consuming effort.
If some one is listing 50 to 100 records at an average side of 20 minutes.
Someone doesn't like this doesn't have the time in a day to do it.
VG+ to me would be very clean, minor scuffs and a little minor back ground static in the quieter sections of an album.
VG would be a step lower with occasional audible pops.
A mint record unwrapped will have audible noise within a few plays unless you live in a vacuum where you won't hear anything at all even the music
 
I have three, four hundred originals and out of that probably ten or twelve that are not dead quiet. I'm an old hand at picking out records, you have to tilt them just right and catch the reflection to see how the shine allows you to see how deep the scratches are. I don't think many know this old trick anymore. I have turned down many a record because it was dull looking or there were too many small fine hair like scratches. I've got an original Iron Butterfly "In-a-god-a-di-vida that is perfect among so many. The various artist records from K-TEL recorded in the early seventies, I think I have them all and they are a bit too thin and made poorly so they have a bit of noise. But I don't buy records with clicks, pops or even scratches. Maybe just a little bit of noise from the paper sleeve but that's it an only on just a few records. Plus, I got them from the Goodwill in Tacoma.....99 cents. I looked at so many records that one of the girls there asked me what I was looking at so I showed her how to look at the surface of the records by using the reflection. If you don't do that your just going to get noisy records. If your getting any kind of noise at all you don't know what your looking for before you pay, you've got to tilt that vinyl and catch the reflection at an angle looking into the reflection on the record and slightly move the reflection around on the record to see how damaged or dull the shine is. Just holding the record in a vertical position in front of you isn't gonna help. Noisy records bother me and I give them to the Goodwill if I accidentally end up with one.....

Then too audible noise can come from different things, but for the best sound from originals a Denon 103 being a conical stylus is the best cause it sits up higher in the groove. Then there is the tracking force, which should be lighter when playing originals. Just because you play a record a few times doesn't mean you will hear noise. That's an indication of a lack of proper set up, too much downward pressure for tracking force actually causes noise on older records.
 
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I learned to grade conservatively.
If it's not shiny, it doesn't make it out of G.

VG+ should play "clean", little or no noise.
But your rig may be more delicate to things than mine. I spend nearly nothing on turntables and carts. I get nice gear cheap.

NM should be perfect "except" one or two very minor things.

I grade a lot by sight and use the light reflection trick and ANY mark counts against.

VG should play well even if it looks a bit tired.

I rarely run over 1.5 gram force.
Usually 1 gram if possible.
 
IMHO ... record grading is subjective and vulnerable to "grading inflation". To quote American Philosopher Simon ... "one mans ceiling is another mans floor".

Another problem ... again IMHO ... over grading boosts sales & most people won't bother to send stuff back.


If your bothered by surface noise ... pops, ticks, crackle ... etc. Don't buy Vg+ records.

I don't trust anybody's grading ... until I've bought Vinyl from them before. Usually inexpensive records to judge their grading integrity. They have to prove themselves.
Otherwise I assume a Vg+ is more than likely a VG or below.

Seller record grade - 1 = probable grade.
 
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So many factors in play here. The stylus, stereo system, cleaning method, price, rarity, type of music, listener's ears...
I know some people are perfectly happy with just owning a particular LP and the condition is secondary. Sellers know this.
Personally, my expectations of the vinyl are higher now than say, in the 80's when I owned cheaper stereo equipment. Covers are not as much of an issue with me.

VG+ can be expected to have slight surface noise with occasional snaps.
Give a honest description of the sound quality in your feedback and avoid those sellers in the future.

Many sellers are jumping on the vinyl bandwagon who don't know good condition from near mint condition.
You've got to read between the lines. Like Eastham said, it's a gamble.

VG+ at the record shop, where you can play test it, is safer than VG+ online.
I own many VG+ records that are very listenable but I have also pasted on many after a quick listen.
 
Last week, I was interested in bidding on a Japanese pressing offered by a seller in Japan. Judging by his eBay store, he sells lots and lots of vinyl, so definitely a pro. What caught my attention was that the record in question was graded "VG ~ EX" and the same grading was assigned to the cover. The photos showed a flawless cover and overall shiny vinyl, but not detailed enough to see any potential scuffs, hairline scratches etc.

So I emailed and expressed my confusion about this vast range his grading would include. I was completely puzzled how a professional record seller couldn't be expected to have the expertise to tell a VG from an EX record, given that my wife could, and she knows nothing about vinyl. I asked him to clarify and narrow down the grading, so I could make a better assessment of how much I was willing to bid.

His response, in short, was: "Please understand that this record has been used and may show signs of wear. If you expect a perfect item, please refrain from bidding at this time."

Really?? A record from 1975 is USED?? What a shock!

I felt, quite honestly, like I was being treated like a complete moron. Has anyone experienced the same, where a seller refuses to assign a grade that's actually practical?
 
When I grade a record VG+, it will have very little noise and I mean very little. Usually I grade a record like that that might have some faint sleevelines or paper sleeve scuffs from removing from the inner sleeve. Even my VG records will play really nice. Anything that grades less or has a lot of noise (in the music) is just a player grade copy

If a record has anything feel able on it, it goes to the dumpster (unless it's something stupid rare and even then I grade it as a player copy) or place keeper until a nicer one comes along
 
I must admit that some of my records I sell in BT are visual grade only. A VG+ to me is a record that glossy, no scratches, maybe an occasional minor scuff. I know for a fact, from listening to records, that it should play clear. Pops and crackles are NOT a symptom of scuffs, usually dirt, static, or just a bad press. Scratches will skip. Like someone mentioned, if you're listing 50 records up for sale who has time to document the audial flaws of each? Which makes visual grading necessary. Now if I sell one I graded high and someone on here has a problem with it, PM me and I'll refund and pay for return shipping.
 
Last week, I was interested in bidding on a Japanese pressing offered by a seller in Japan. Judging by his eBay store, he sells lots and lots of vinyl, so definitely a pro. What caught my attention was that the record in question was graded "VG ~ EX" and the same grading was assigned to the cover. The photos showed a flawless cover and overall shiny vinyl, but not detailed enough to see any potential scuffs, hairline scratches etc.

So I emailed and expressed my confusion about this vast range his grading would include. I was completely puzzled how a professional record seller couldn't be expected to have the expertise to tell a VG from an EX record, given that my wife could, and she knows nothing about vinyl. I asked him to clarify and narrow down the grading, so I could make a better assessment of how much I was willing to bid.

His response, in short, was: "Please understand that this record has been used and may show signs of wear. If you expect a perfect item, please refrain from bidding at this time."

Really?? A record from 1975 is USED?? What a shock!

I felt, quite honestly, like I was being treated like a complete moron. Has anyone experienced the same, where a seller refuses to assign a grade that's actually practical?

From the seller's perspective ... keep in mind shipping from Japan is expensive ... how is the seller to know what you consider a good used copy? ... my earlier example: "One man's ceiling is another man's floor".
I would take a pass on this record ... when someone grades Vg to EX ... I just assume the lowest grade VG ... seller is probably just using marketing language.
 
A few of you mentioned that glossy is a characteristic you look at when grading. Is that meaning glossy after cleaning? I have gotten dull looking records that have appeared glossy after a good cleaning. Also what exactly is loss of gloss indicating on a record?
 
A few of you mentioned that glossy is a characteristic you look at when grading. Is that meaning glossy after cleaning? I have gotten dull looking records that have appeared glossy after a good cleaning. Also what exactly is loss of gloss indicating on a record?

A loss of gloss is usually a sign it's been played a lot and will probably have noise. Yep, dirty records can look and play spectacular when cleaned as long as they were always put back in their jackets. I try to avoid anything that looks like it was rubbed on a carpet, those are usually a victim of being left out of their jacket for periods of time with other loose records stacked on them haphazardly. Also, the old stackers could make your records look pretty gnarly prior to the manufactures making the outer edge higher

Many of the old records were played on garbage equipment or with a worn stylus also. I think a lot of us remember when a penny or a quarter was taped on the headshell so a worn stylus would play without skipping LOL!!!

NOTE: There is a big difference between a dirty record and a beat record. Even through a lot of dust you can see what the gloss looks like
 
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