Record grading and your expectations

[Condorsat]

A few of you mentioned that glossy is a characteristic you look at when grading. Is that meaning glossy after cleaning? I have gotten dull looking records that have appeared glossy after a good cleaning. Also what exactly is loss of gloss indicating on a record?

IMHO ... same thing as loss of gloss means on a used coin ... indicator of how much it was used. Used coins look used ... mint coins look mint.

Actually ... I prefer records that are dusty ... but look good under the dust. A clean used record is often somebodies cull.

 

[onepixel]

Grading visually is useless. I grade by listening to the entire album.

I have black shiny, mint looking records that are noisy as hell and conversely, ones that look like they got run over, sound really quiet.

The stylus makes a difference too. Some pick up everything.

 

[Condorsat]

Grading visually is useless. I grade by listening to the entire album.

During the dollar bin days (17 years ago) ... my cull rate was 33% ... kept 2 of every 3 records ... I always checked records via room light.
Dollar bin days ... I took chances as well ... for a buck ... why not?

Fast forward to today ... I use LED Flashlight and I'm really picky ... has to look completely (first to last track) NM- or at least Vg++ (ex) for me to pay $5.
My cull rate is ridiculously low ... 2%.

 

[Northwinds]

Grading visually is useless. I grade by listening to the entire album.

I have black shiny, mint looking records that are noisy as hell and conversely, ones that look like they got run over, sound really quiet.

The stylus makes a difference too. Some pick up everything.

Been in the record game for 40+ years and grading visually is not worthless, 99% of any used records you buy online are graded visually and there is few and far complaints if the seller really cared about his customers

Direct sunlight is the key to grading visually because a shiny black record does not look like a shiny black record in direct sunlight, you can see things you do not normally see in natural indoor light. At the very least use a 100w lightbulb or a bright LED

Having bought at least 30,000 records in my lifetime by looking at them visually only, very few records ever sounded noisy that appeared glossy and clean, especially after a proper wet cleaning. Usually that is a direct result of poor vinyl formulation or recycled material (think mid to late 70s issues). There is also the groove wear issue but a groove worn record also sort of stands out under direct sunlight if you know what to look for

You are correct, there is many types of stylus'.... a conical point will tend to amplify groove wear vs a micro ridge which gets down into the groove itself and can be quite forgiving as the damage does not normally extend to the fine contact point

This is just my opinion from many years of experience

 

[Johncan]

You are correct, there is many types of stylus'.... a conical point will tend to amplify groove wear vs a micro ridge which gets down into the groove itself and can be quite forgiving as the damage does not normally extend to the fine contact point

The records I started the thread about are noisy on my neoSAS, SAS, elliptical, and conical styli. The LPs all look VG+ to me with no scratches. It is clearly groove wear noise.

There is also the groove wear issue but a groove worn record also sort of stands out under direct sunlight if you know what to look for

What do you look for here?

Thanks for all the comments and discussion so far!

 

[Northwinds]

The records I started the thread about are noisy on my neoSAS, SAS, elliptical, and conical styli. The LPs all look VG+ to me with no scratches. It is clearly groove wear noise.



What do you look for here?

Thanks for all the comments and discussion so far!

I look at the grooves of the music areas, they will be substantially duller. That is not always a 100% indication but if a record looks noticeably dull, I will avoid it. There is many Blue Note records that look clean but sound horrible, they tend to all in the music areas to be dull looking, not that sparkle of a clean nonabused record

 

[onepixel]

Condorsat and Northwinds, you guys have the years of experience and I think most who resale records, do not.

I do visually inspect used records before I buy them, but I'm not grading for resale. I've been "listening" and collecting records for 45+ years and have exacting standards. Unless it's a rare album, I no longer purchase records off places like eBay. It's a crap shoot.

Cheers

 

[DesertTwang]

From the seller's perspective ... keep in mind shipping from Japan is expensive ... how is the seller to know what you consider a good used copy? ... my earlier example: "One man's ceiling is another man's floor".
I would take a pass on this record ... when someone grades Vg to EX ... I just assume the lowest grade VG ... seller is probably just using marketing language.

You make a good point, with grading being subjective to some degree. This particular seller lists the following scale on his page: VG < VG+ < EX < EX+ < NM < Mint .
So according to his own system, a particular record advertised as "VG ~ EX" would still span three categories, which I find questionable. I could see "VG+ ~ EX" but not "VG ~ EX."

 

[Condorsat]

You make a good point, with grading being subjective to some degree. This particular seller lists the following scale on his page: VG < VG+ < EX < EX+ < NM < Mint .
So according to his own system, a particular record advertised as "VG ~ EX" would still span three categories, which I find questionable. I could see "VG+ ~ EX" but not "VG ~ EX."

True ... keep in mind, some sellers use templates (pre-set format or narrative) ... VG to Ex might cover most of his inventory .... lazy man's method ... but I've seen this happen.
Large dealers take short cuts ... they are looking for easy large volume sales.

 

[blownsi]

I hate it when sellers expect me to rather send the record back than leave a review that's 100% positive, because to me, that practice only perpetuates the epidemic of all-too-optimistic grading. I think there has to be self-correcting mechanism in place, in the sense that if a seller grades too much on the optimistic side, they should be called on it. Otherwise, they'll just continue the practice. Plus, no, I don't want to go through all that hassle of wrapping and shipping a record back to the seller. I don't mind the occasional surface noise, I just want them to be upfront about it from the beginning.

This is exactly why I hate selling vinyl on ebay. The customer doesn't like the item and/or it's condition and yet doesn't want to return it because of the hassle.. So I refund and eat the cost of the item, packaging, and the shipping while hoping that that I get a positive feedback and positive DSRs. Because of Ebay's DSR scores, one more poor review could cost me 3-6 months of 15% increased selling fees (on ALL items) so it's actually cheaper to just give you the item. This is why sellers say there really is no such thing as seller protection. With vinyl, I'd much rather just keep a spare in my collection or donate it to a thrift store than deal with the issues. Novices always look for rare or collector items to sell, veterans have dealt with so many collectors that they try to stay away from these items. True story: I once took a negative for a mint condition complete Snow White Platinum Edition DVD because one of the expired coupons stuffed in with the insert was missing.

As for the OPs question, I expect VG+ to have some wear due to playback or improper handling. I like others hate when "mint" visual graded vinyl also sounds bad but I don't expect a reseller to play test every album they sell either.

 

[Bob]

This problem has no solution, real or virtual.

issues include those that aren't solvable
1. no cleaning by seller or buyer of record that sounds like crap but could sound better if cleaned (ultrasonics, glueing, vacuum cleaning)
2. buyer's remorse/irritation/extreme-expectations where minor defect (incorrect fold of inner paper sleeve all the way to a split seam
and zillions of pops and clicks) gets it returned. perhaps even after it is digitized.
3. seller's TT is crap and can't hear anything - yours is 5+K with a MC and custom line contact
buyer's TT is roadside pickup with crooked needle he cleans with right thumb after eating French fries with ketchup
4. are there any megadeath, Black Sabbath, Nine Inch nails that are museum quality?

I used to buy classical in lots simply because even classical lovers don't overplay the LPs
I've never seen a classical LP with the white grooves although I've created many with my CRAP Zero-100C

If I ever want music that frat houses play at drunken beer bacchanalias (only 50 times per year)
and wash in the toilets to clean off the organic swarf then I would buy CDs.
at least EAC can drag out the music and you could pre-clean the CDs in the dishwasher.

With the rising prices of everything, LPs get turned over, junky ones get sucked into the
flipper maelstrom. so the best course is buyer beware and clean everything in sight.

 

[Northwinds]

Last thing, when I have bought records, I normally will not buy anything unless it looks pretty much barely if at all played. A couple folks here know I am pretty critical about my record collection. Everybody has some records in their collection that might have a faint sleeve lines, they sound fine. That is what I call a surface sheen visual that does not affect playback but depending how it looks could result in me grading it as low as VG. I feel visual grade can be far more critical in a lot of cases vs actual playback grade which will usually far higher in my grading

I don't think it's hard... just get a buy a bunch of different $1-3 records and check them in bright sunlight when you get home. Then play them in spots you feel could potentially cause a problem. After awhile, you will be very competent at determining condition on the fly when looking at used stuff. At a record shop, you will be looking at much high prices. Last time I was in a shop, I would say at least 30% of the more desirable titles had at least a few glaring marks that did not affect playback and others that possibly will. These were $15-80 records

 

[meggy]

Grading visually is useless. I grade by listening to the entire album.

I have black shiny, mint looking records that are noisy as hell and conversely, ones that look like they got run over, sound really quiet.

The stylus makes a difference too. Some pick up everything.

I agree but what it means to me is that the look of an LP doesn't have a consistent bearing on how well it will clean up. Then each person's cleanup is subject to all sorts of varying degrees of effectiveness.

My long term rate of cleaned up to Near Mint out of the dollar bin (without inspecting), using a VPI 16.5 and a nylon fingernail scrub brush is at least 2 in 5. At least.

 

[onepixel]

I agree but what it means to me is that the look of an LP doesn't have a consistent bearing on how well it will clean up. Then each person's cleanup is subject to all sorts of varying degrees of effectiveness.

My long term rate of cleaned up to Near Mint out of the dollar bin (without inspecting), using a VPI 16.5 and a nylon fingernail scrub brush is at least 2 in 5. At least.

But when you buy a VG+ from others that visually grade and isn't as picky, you can be disappointed. I bought a VG++ from a well respected AKer and I was hugely disappointed. I would've graded it G. I would be embarrassed to pass along, let alone sell something like that at a marked up price. What's worse, I don't play it.

Everyone has their own criteria and priorities. Listening tops mine, not the money.

 

[meggy]

Yeah, that's what I rarely buy LP's from Bartertown. Why hassle with possibly creating bad karma.

onepixel, you mean it sonically was only G or visually only G when they said it was visually VG++ ?

Although sometime I wonder with my clean up rate, if I bought cheap "collector item" records on eBay that were visually rated no higher than VG, if I'd get the same almost 50% chance of being able to clean them up to NM as I get out of the dollar bin. Why wouldn't I? Statistics don't know of it came out of a dollar bin or eBay.

 

[HiFiThor]

I have been re-building my record collection the last few months. I get quite a few from the Goodwill, take them home and play them. I see if they have the sizzle I seem to remember and if they do I check out Amazon or Discogs and buy a mint/new edition. Even still I have got some new/sealed and they were noisy out of the gate and wonder how this can be. Of course I clean them first with my super wham-a-dyne vacuum record cleaner and use my zerostat to kill the static electricity. I came from the school that the lighter the tracking force the better for everything concerned. I was taken aback a month ago when I bought a Sumiko Blue Point 2.0. Their literature told me that the recommended track force for this cartridge was 2 grams and to cut through all the technical talk this tracking force was "high" because you want the stylus to stay in the groove otherwise you are inviting excessive wear on the diamond and the grooves. This all makes me a little crazy because my favorite cartridge is the V15 type III and IV models. I have them set to ride at .75 grams and they both can take the highest test levels the Shure Test records can provide without a hitch.

I've been around long enough to remember the transition from records to CD's. We all lived with pops and scratches on our records. There were all kinds of gimmicks offered to electronically remove and make silent playback of a record, none of which actually worked. There were even electronic devices that monitored the music and attempted to increase the dynamic range of the record which typically was about 50 db if I remember correctly. Those devices topped out at about an extra 10 db I recall.

Then CD's arrived. The music sprang from absolute silence! They were durable! They had a nominal 90+ db dynamic range! Once I heard a CD I couldn't make the transition fast enough! Anybody have the Telarc 1812 Overture CD with the caution statement "CAUTION! Digital Cannons!". I tossed my records and TT, never going to use that stuff again! I remember recording artists DEMANDING that their material be released on CD, NOW! I also recall a cartoon in AUDIO magazine where a guy is looking at a sign in front of a construction site. The sign was informing that this site was the location of a new record pressing plant with a huge CANCELLED across it from corner to corner.

Think about this. We have an entire generation that has discovered vinyl and yet they demand that it perform as good or better than a CD at least from a pop and scratch point of view. Even if someone who sells records had the time to listen to each track what standard would they use, how many pops, clicks and scratches constitutes a certain rating level? The whole sonic comparison between the two is a whole 'nother conversation. You are going to have to learn that every time you take that record out of the jacket wear will be incurred, a new pop will come about and you will wonder how it could have ever happened. That's analog.

Speaking of analog, might I offer magnetic tape as a medium? Almost all vinyl records come from analog recorded tape. The main problem with tape is hiss. How to overcome? Dolby processing (not real impressed) dbx (seems to work but is complicated) and increased tape speed. I think the standard was 30 inch/sec and Dolby A processing. For those lucky enough to have a quality reel to reel and get tapes off eBay are truly surprised at the good quality of audio. Of course it is a lot cheaper to press a record than to make a tape so I don't see a come back for tape.

Don't get me wrong Digital/CD's have forced the advancement of the current state of the art. We have amps now that can produce the power to make our speakers sing. Electronics have gotten quieter and I think all this has made the experience of vinyl more of a pleasure.

I'd advise that if something is important enough to you then getting the best possible quality you can afford is the only way to go. If you try to get it on the cheap then you get what you pay for.

Please pardon my ramblin'

 

[txc500]

When i sell a VG+ LP, it is just about like a new record. No scratches, or significant noise. That's just me. I rarely go to EX if it's something really special and exceptionally clean. I do play grade, if not the entire LP, I check a song or 2 to get a feel for the overall sound.
That said, I have had the same experience you had as a buyer. I recently was looking for some early Bowie UK pressings. I bought one that was described as VG+ and it was definitely not, the seller was not very nice when I asked about a return. Then, I resorted to emailing sellers and telling them that I am looking for a super clean and quiet copy of an LP as theirs was described, and if they could verify. I had a few folks take a listen and downgrade their description and tell me I might not be happy. I did get some confident replies and they were good purchases.

 

[Fitero]

Excellent post HiFiThor. It brought back some memories.

I'm just getting back into vinyl myself and am enjoying obsessing about cleaning methods, solutions etc. Hell, in the old days I would use a bound up pair of socks to clean the record if the brush got misplaced. Of course they had to be black, or dark colored socks. White was a no go for some reason. Memories.

 

[Johncan]

HiFiThor - I turn 50 in June. I was a record store clerk from 1984 to 1990, I remember when CDs overtook vinyl sales in 1988. Like you, I made the switch from vinyl to CD in the late 1980s. However, I never got rid of my vinyl. I kept it. I became a crate digger in college and have not stopped. I still buy LPs at the Goodwill, the local record shops, and Discogs when I can't find it locally. Like you, I might risk $.77 at the Goodwill. If the record is too beat up to play, I donate it back to the Goodwill and seek out a better copy at the shops or online. I think we have many similar experiences with our mediums of choice and gear.

In Atlanta, we have at least 10 record stores where I can shop. I do have to visually grade at most of the shops and some will allow to me to listen to the LP in the store. This helps remove the risk of buying a bad copy. I am starting to order more on Discogs and am learning which dealers to trust about their grades.

I am not looking for perfect LPs, I am looking for LPs that match their declared grade.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

 

[Westy56]

expect to be disappointed

Not disappointed, just knowing that it's the seller's grading and that's all you can expect.