Self-Driving Cars

Discussion in 'AK Polls' started by loopstick, Dec 5, 2016.

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Would You Buy A Self-Driving Car?

  1. Yes

    29 vote(s)
    21.5%
  2. Maybe

    16 vote(s)
    11.9%
  3. No

    90 vote(s)
    66.7%
  1. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Bees do this little dance that tells the other bees where the flowers are. But algorithmically that's probably nowhere near as sophisticated as visual perception. For a smart car sensor to have true depth perception - not radar ping ping ping - it would need two separate cameras and the brains required to process parallax virtually instantly across the field of view. Assuming it could accomplish this then it would need further brains to interpret this processed depth perception.

    Maybe at that point the car would ready to follow a small set of decision rules. But we and other animals have visual perception hard-wired. It happens "in hardware" in the background - we take it for granted while the "software" side of our thinking controls the vehicle. The next time you're in a self-driving car keep in mind that compared to you it's barreling forward in world of darkness collecting impulses from a suite of widgets.
     
  2. ilusndweller

    ilusndweller Super Member

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    I think you are making this more complicated than it is. Algorhythm shmalgorhythm. I could argue your "evolution vs algorhythms" argument is irrelevant to the issue at hand (safe self-driving cars). No you cant put a value on life. Yes people will die. Yes in the not too distant future, self-driving cars will be safer than traditional cars(IMHO of course). Having said that, I think it will probably be 20-30 years (maybe even 38.26) until I bought one. But that is just around the corner. Regards and good read!
     
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2017
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  3. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Would you mind making such an argument? I realize it's easy to be impressed by modern technology cuz of smart phones and computer generated special effects in movies. But these were easy problems for which the answers were already known - all that was needed was the for the hardware to evolve to the point where the implementation of these answers became practical. The answers for the problems of self-driving cars are not dependent on the evolution of hardware - they are dependent on the evolution of algorithms.
     
  4. Alobar

    Alobar Flight of the Cosmic Hippie. Subscriber

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    What happens when self driving computers (not the car, it's the computer) in their long learning process end up with billions of lines of code? Wouldn't there be conflicts and conundrums with this amount of Shear complexity? Is this the likely result? I know computers can fly and land airliners. Do the approach, flair and land themselves, hold the centerline etc, with only a few things the pilot must do (other than considerable setup and input) such as apply reverse thrust. Is this act more or less difficult for a computer to do than the myriad of different conditions that a car might encounter in its entire life? Will there be point when it will it become necessary to abandon the binary system altogether, the And - Or - Not -Nor- Nand thing and build an actual brain?
     
    John James likes this.
  5. JDub

    JDub AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    FWIW my view of technology comes from having worked in manufacturing since CNC machines were a novelty and watching cybernetic systems perform fairly sophisticated operations reliably day in and day out (versus commuting on the freeway and seeing fender-benders or worse every day).

    As far as building a brain, I’m going to have to (Shock, Horror!) agree with Loopstick and say that several hundred million years of evolution can’t be just duplicated in a lab. I think the solution is not in making the computer more complicated, it’s in parsing out driving into simple enough components that decisions can be made on a finite number of nested if/then statements.
     
  6. Alobar

    Alobar Flight of the Cosmic Hippie. Subscriber

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    I could see this, but it would be the roadway itself that would need to be more controlled in order to have less complex driverless computers. Highways that keep all the variables to a minimum. Currently a road may have occasional spots of black ice on a slight north face. A driverless car must recognize this. Now throw in two other scenarios. A dog suddenly jumps out in front of the car from the right, and at the same time a child approaches out from the left. The car is unable to stop for either, but can make a choice on which to hit. Does it recognize the dog or the kid and does it make the correct choice? The dog being of less value.. This while may prove difficult for a human, I would venture the dog would easily be the one sacraficed with a real person behind the wheel. Not sure about the computer, particularly a less complex one.
    Probably so.. Having computers run CNC is a far far cry from all the unforeseen circumstances that await a driverless car. Would you agree?
     
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  7. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    Wow !!

    Trolley problem

    To me the simple problem is that everybody in Michigan knows not to drive over puddles in the Spring cuz beneath the surface of that puddle is a deep chuckhole that will shred your tires and bend your wheels. But to a self-driving car it appears to be an innocent shallow little puddle - assuming it notices the puddle at all. You can have the car "learn" about what Michiganders already know through a neural net - but you don't want to be in the car while it learns those things. :D
     
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  8. 1984_C10

    1984_C10 Active Member

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    No way, its not really my thing, after all, why did i take my driver's license?
    I really hope it doesn't become a mainstream thing when it catches on, i would prefer it to be a niche thing, for people too rich for their own good.
     
    John James likes this.
  9. chadbang

    chadbang Well-Known Member

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    I want one so bad. I think the whole word should be forced to use them. Think about it: No rat racing, no drunk driving, no old ladies. If there's an accident it's the manufacturer's insurance responsibility. No more car insurance! I have to drive to the thrift store now (looking for a computer LCD, I'd love to have my car drive me there while I keep reading on the web.
     
  10. Alobar

    Alobar Flight of the Cosmic Hippie. Subscriber

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    If they force me into buying a self driver I am going to send it off alone on day trips in order to practice up. If it can get 10kmiles without any harm done I may relax a bit. However I am quite concerned over machines taking over our lives and once accomplished, what will we do with ourselves? At some point what will be left of our mental and physical abilities, will we know how to pour piss out of a boot without the instructions written on the heel?
     
  11. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I wouldn't worry about it. The only people pushing this are Silicon Valley types who have no clue about the auto industry and cuz they no longer make silicon stuff (moved to China) they gotta get their hands into something else. Many of the developer comments posted to defend the technology in news stories about accidents come from individuals who obviously didn't grow up in a car culture. The fact that they openly refer to what they're doing as "beta testing" indicates a complete disconnect from reality. My guess is if they ever roll these things out in any great number it will be such a huge clusterf* that the whole concept will be shelved.
     
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  12. ilusndweller

    ilusndweller Super Member

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    Im probably looking into this too much, but Im just not sure why such hate? The technology will get there. Whats crazier, imagining most people in self driving cars 30 years (or whenever) from now? Or imaging our world today, 30 years ago? These things are gonna avoid potential accidents in the first place by being the ultimate defensive driver. But yeah people are gonna die, just not nearly as many IMHO. Regards and please dont take this the wrong way. I really do like what you (and others) have to say (some is over my head but I think I get the general idea), I just dont agree with all of it. Id like to defend my point of view with specifics, but Im just going off of gut feeling (and working full time as well as full time student). Peace!
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2017
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  13. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    I'm not hating or taking anything the wrong way. If you happen to be an engineering student then you're already in the process of developing insights that will help you to separate hype and wishful thinking from cold reality. Our world today is really not that much different from the world 30 years ago so let's not pat ourselves on the back too much for things like cell phones and the internet. There have been great advances in associated technologies like video compression but they don't directly advance the progress of artificial perception / intelligence.

    When these cars drive off the edge at Pikes Peak or perform equivalent feats of spectacular stupidity it will be (in their "minds") for perfectly logical reasons. The "save lives" argument boils down to a trade-off between fewer drunks dying and more innocent people dying. If these cars "save" 4000 drunks and kill 3000 good drivers then that's not my idea of a "greater good". You didn't really solve the problem - you just altered it in a rather dubious manner.
     
  14. Alobar

    Alobar Flight of the Cosmic Hippie. Subscriber

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    Totally agree, plus these cars strip away my own defensive driving skills and place them in a complex series of algorithms that don't necessarily have that much interest in my own best interests. Last thing I need is a computer sacrificing my life in order to lessen the chance of a bus being ran off the road or otherwise placed in some sort of calculated danger, in an effort to better protect the lives of the many over the few on some icy patch..
     
  15. 1984_C10

    1984_C10 Active Member

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    What i'm really looking forward to is self-driving farm equipment, like the combines on the movie "Interstellar".
    Its almost a reality as well, Case has a tractor prototype without any human input on the machine itself, controlled only via the apps on your tablet or cellphone.
    I REALLY hope this one catches up, since i work on this area and i know the difficulties regarding the handling of heavy machinery by inexperienced employes.
     
  16. Alobar

    Alobar Flight of the Cosmic Hippie. Subscriber

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    And it will be much safer when we can get all those workers off the machines and into their homes where nothing can happen to them. :(
     
  17. 1984_C10

    1984_C10 Active Member

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    If the transition happens too fast we are going to lose a lot of irreplaceable jobs on many areas, this transition is not going to be pretty...
     
  18. +48V

    +48V hi-fi or die

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    Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
    Courage to change the things I can,
    And wisdom to know the difference.​
     
  19. loopstick

    loopstick AK Subscriber Subscriber

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    [​IMG]
     
  20. ilusndweller

    ilusndweller Super Member

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    I just dont see all these "what ifs" playing out. Ive got my engineering degrees. And worked in a world class r&d lab for 7 years doing automotive stuff (and other more exciting things like processing steps for the Hubble imager, microlense arrays for cockpit displays so they always look the same no matter what, space shuttle fill-and drain valve that sent LOX to main engine, etc ) Gonna just agree to disagree. Dont get me wrong, there is no way I would get into one today. Or 10 years from now. But 30 or so? Quite possibly. Is there data thus far that shows these mishaps (crashes) are due to algorhythms (or lack of)? Regards.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2017

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