Some Empire Turntable History

[ateal]

Every single aftermarket Empire belt I've tried for a 208/298/398 sucks. Every. Single. One. If someone has found a solution, please let me know.

There isn't a single belt on the market today that replicates the original Empire belt specs for the 208/298/398.

I picked up the Esoteric based on the recommendation. After leaving it in place for 24 hours, I was not impressed with the belt. Perfect speed can only be achieved by tilting the motor an extreme amount so the belt rides at the top end of the angled pulley step. Additionally, note how taut and stiff the belt is. Below is a photo of Esoteric belt dialed in for correct 33.3 rpm speed on my Empire 208. Note the extreme tilt required for correct speed. Note how precariously close the base of the pulley is to the pot metal chassis. Move the belt to 45 rpm and it's grind city. The Esoteric seems to behave about the same as the PRB FRX 35.1. Fail.

Position the belt on the 45 rpm step and the bottom of the pulley contacts the chassis and makes a grinding noise.

The Empire user manuals available online clearly state the original belts were designed to run at perfect speed when centered on the pulley step so extreme motor tilt is avoided. So all of these aftermarket belts are not replicating the correct belt design per the original Empire collateral.

The Atma-sphere design is less taut and allows the belt to ride in the middle and doesn't require tilt. But the belt is so thin (thinner than the original Empires) the speed can't be adjusted. So it's ultimately a fail as well.

I don't know why someone can't engineer a belt that works per the original specs.

Hey Monkboughtlunch, are you running too fast or too slow. If too slow maybe I can send you my old belt that ran too fast for me.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

The 498 was the first suspended sub-chassis Empire and appeared as far as I can tell about 1966 or 1967.

I wanted to share that I learned the 498 was available for sale as early as August 1962. The below excerpt is from Audio Magazine's August, 1962 issue. Empire priced the 498 less than the 398 system.

 

[ateal]

Interesting that back in the day it cost more than the Thorens 135 and the Rek O Kut's.

Does not surprise me as this is one staggeringly good turntable with great mid century modern looks.

 

[foppy]

Jeez o man! A guy has four NOS Empire 980 cartridge mounts/sleds for $250 each on the auction site. I paid less for my entire 598. Seems crazy to me. (The auction isn't mine of course.)

I got lucky, I guess, though it didn't feel that way at the time--I bought a lot of three used sleds a while back for a bit over a hundred bucks, just to have them. We'll see what the market will bear.

 

[MRL_Audio]

Hard to justify that price when the remake is $49 a piece and works just as well. Not a buyer here.

 

[foppy]

Hard to justify that price when the remake is $49 a piece and works just as well. Not a buyer here.

Yeah, except I had problems with those. The screw hole didn't fit the knurled screw on my tonearm, and then a couple of the wires fell off.

They seem to work for everybody but me, though. I'm happy I bought the three used OEM ones from the bay.

 

[catama]

Where do you get the remakes?

 

[foppy]

Where do you get the remakes?

Do an ebay search on "Empire 980 Tonearm Cartridge Holder."

 

[catama]

Thank you! I found the seller and ordered two.

 

[catama]

Some comments on my Empire 598III and compatibility or synergy.

I obtained this TT to mate with my Scott 299 tube amp, mostly because of the compatibility of their looks. The gold colored face of the Scott and the gold plinth/tone arm combo of the 598III were a perfect match. I added the Scott 350B tuner later and had a very nice looking system. The 598 has a Denon DL-160 cartridge. The sound, however, was somewhat lacking. Not bad, mind you, but not thrilling. Not crystal clear, not defined. Anyway, I moved in other directions and obtained McIntosh gear. I matched it with Thorens TT's and was very happy. The 598 wasn't played very much. I ended up selling the Thorens TT and while I contemplated replacing the Thorens, I hooked up the 598 to my Mac system. Holy mother of God! What emerged was a sound that was better than the Thorens, crystal clear, sharp, defined, expansive and engaging. I was floored. I am making the 598 my main TT. Hooray!

 

[empirelvr]

Some comments on my Empire 598III and compatibility or synergy.

I obtained this TT to mate with my Scott 299 tube amp, mostly because of the compatibility of their looks. The gold colored face of the Scott and the gold plinth/tone arm combo of the 598III were a perfect match. I added the Scott 350B tuner later and had a very nice looking system. The 598 has a Denon DL-160 cartridge. The sound, however, was somewhat lacking. Not bad, mind you, but not thrilling. Not crystal clear, not defined. Anyway, I moved in other directions and obtained McIntosh gear. I matched it with Thorens TT's and was very happy. The 598 wasn't played very much. I ended up selling the Thorens TT and while I contemplated replacing the Thorens, I hooked up the 598 to my Mac system. Holy mother of God! What emerged was a sound that was better than the Thorens, crystal clear, sharp, defined, expansive and engaging. I was floored. I am making the 598 my main TT. Hooray!

Welcome to the fold.

 

[IMARC4]

Credit where credit is due: just got a new 398 that came with a thick "instruction manual". Right after the photocopies of the official manual was a familiar post Guess this is required reading!

 

[empirelvr]

Gee...well will you look at that!

The truth is I had an even more complete update of the first post "in the can" for a while but it was "too long" for the forum software and I never followed up on it further. Maybe I should try again.

 

[IMARC4]

Yeah, post it here (or edit your initial post). There are some of us who will read it no matter how long it is. There is something else here in AK called "albums" I have never played with, but you might be able to post it there and then include a link to it at the end of your original post.

 

[savoirfaire]

Interesting. Why does my motor tilt so much to achieve 33 RPM with the Esoteric. Yours doesn't tilt as much.

For the record, monkboughtlunch, I bought a belt from Esoteric about 3 years ago and have the same issue as you. To get the right speed, the belt has to run right up against the knob at the top of the spindle. The spindle doesn't rub against the chassis, so I was ok with it, but now, years later, the belt likes to slip upward until it's actually riding the knob. Once it does that, it will eventually pop right off the spindle. Looking for a better solution if anyone has one.

 

[hughman61]

Wow! Most comprehensive post. Just was curious about these TT's and I got my monies worth. Thanks for all the information. I'm archiving this one.

~Hugh

 

[targeteye]

I think the G models are a particularly good aesthetic match for early gold faced Scott Gear .

Here is my 398G matched up with my 299A.

Steve

 

[monkboughtlunch]

For the record, monkboughtlunch, I bought a belt from Esoteric about 3 years ago and have the same issue as you. To get the right speed, the belt has to run right up against the knob at the top of the spindle. The spindle doesn't rub against the chassis, so I was ok with it, but now, years later, the belt likes to slip upward until it's actually riding the knob. Once it does that, it will eventually pop right off the spindle. Looking for a better solution if anyone has one.

Ditto. I'm still looking for an aftermarket belt that will deliver the precise performance of the original Empire belts.

 

[targeteye]

In regards to belts. Mine runs at the correct speed even though the belt is a bit loose. The width of the belt is .17 inches.

Steve

 

[ateal]

I think the G models are a particularly good aesthetic match for early gold faced Scott Gear .

Here is my 398G matched up with my 299A.

Steve

Stunning combo. Bet it sounds fantastic.