Some Empire Turntable History

[monkboughtlunch]

On my 1961 Empire 208, I hear a faint "whirring" noise in the right channel. When I put my finger on the motor grommet nearest the platter the sound goes away.

I'm wondering if anyone has experienced this before. Below is a picture I took a couple of years ago when I removed the old grommets.

I recall that there was a spacer on the grommet screw that had a spacer held with Loctite. I didn't reapply Loctite when I reinstalled. I wonder if that spacer is the cause of the noise? Thoughts?

 

[billr]

I have a 598 III I bought new (ca. 1974) in storage that I have been thinking about selling. After reading 82 pages and 1621 posts over the last couple of days, I must say I am impressed with all the knowledge here. I think I'll now get a new belt and bushings and maybe listen to it for a while before letting it go (which I will do, as I have only a handful of LPs left). It means I'll also have to dig my Pioneer SA-9100 out of storage, too.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

For posterity, I wanted to share photos of how to lubricate a Papst motor from an Empire turntable. (The basic lubrication approach should be similar for other turntable models of the era that used a Papst -- such as Rek-O-Kut and Fairchild). My Empire unit is a model 208. The Papst motor in the unit was manufactured in 1961. I don't believe the motor was ever serviced, so I decided to do so for peace of mind.

First, unplug the turntable, remove the turntable platter (insert a micrfiber cloth in the platter well to keep oil from seeping out) and headshell. Tie down the tonearm to the arm rest with a twist tie to lock it in place.

Then put a towel on top of the turntable and turn it over. Rest it on an elevated surface, such as coffee cans.

With the table upside down, unscrew the three screws that are on the bottom of the Papst motor. This will reveal the ball bearing and allow you to remove the oil, flip the delrin thrust pad over and add new oil.

Below: You will want to remove the round cover noted with the red arrow.



Below: the cover removed showing the original yellowed oil in place since 1961 and the delrin thrust pad. While the oil may look ok, when I wiped it off with a cloth it was clearly dirty after having been in service for 56 years.



Below: the cover removed showing the ball bearing and original oil. Note that a little bit of the oil may splash out when removing the lid. Be careful not to lose the ball bearing.



Below: inspect the ball bearing for flat spots or damage. In my case it was fine, so I reused it. I measured it for posterity: 4mm. You could put a new ball bearing in if you like.



Below: Use isopropyl alcohol to clean the bearing well, thrust pad and ball bearing. After cleaning the old, dirty yellow oil away, inspect the delrin thrust pad for a divot worn in from the ball bearing. If you have a substantial divot, flip it over and reseat it to expose a fresh delrin surface to the ball bearing.



Below: removing the divoted thrust pad. You may need to use a safety pin or tiny screwdriver to unseat it.



Below: flip it over and reseat it. There is now a fresh, flat surface that will contact the ball bearing.



Below: press it down and make sure it's seated flat. If it's not flat, find a tool to make it flush. Pushing on it with the rounded side of spoon worked for me. Be careful not to mar or indent the delrin surface.



Below: After cleaning, add new oil. And screw the bottom plate back on the motor. I use 3-IN-ONE brand motor oil SAE 20. (Label is blue and it says: engineered for 1/4 HP motors or larger). I added about 3 or 4 drops -- approximating the amount of oil that was there when I opened it up. Before plugging the unit back in, spin the motor by hand to make sure it is spinning freely.



Below: Enjoy your Empire for many more years!

 

[monkboughtlunch]

Looking for new large rubber feet for your Empire 208 or 398 wood base?

The rubber mushrooms sold as aftermarket parts for the Thorens TD 124 are an exact fit. Here's a picture of them installed on mine.

There is a seller on eBay named audiosilente that sells them (no affiliation).

 

[monkboughtlunch]

A few more shots of my 1961 208.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

I used Howard Restor-A-Finish on the walnut base to eliminate light scratches.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

The Empires with the 98 tonearm have wires that run to terminal strip. I want to modify this to use modern high quality RCA cables.





The cool thing is that this terminal strip arrangement allows you to jettison the terminal strip and add phono jacks instead. This allows you to plug in your own modern phono cables.

Has anyone done this? If so, do you have a parts list? I'd prefer a small shielded box I can mount inside the base out of view. The tonearm wires should enter the box for shielding where they are soldered to the RCA jacks.

I found this part (see below) that looks like it might work. This one doesn't have holes to screw to the wood base though. Might have to use glue instead. Does anyone know of anything better?

http://www.performanceaudio.com/item/radio-design-labs-acb-2-dual-rca-jack-box/2889/

 

[empirelvr]

A few more shots of my 1961 208...

Actually, what you have is a model 298. (298 = 208 turntable + 98 tonearm + stock base.)

And a very fine looking 298 it is, too! *drools*

 

[Fitero]

That is a gorgeous turntable!!!

 

[rocknroll1]

For posterity, I wanted to share photos of how to lubricate a Papst motor from an Empire turntable. (The basic lubrication approach should be similar for other turntable models of the era that used a Papst -- such as Rek-O-Kut and Fairchild). My Empire unit is a model 208. The Papst motor in the unit was manufactured in 1961. I don't believe the motor was ever serviced, so I decided to do so for peace of mind.

First, unplug the turntable, remove the turntable platter (insert a micrfiber cloth in the platter well to keep oil from seeping out) and headshell. Tie down the tonearm to the arm rest with a twist tie to lock it in place.

Then put a towel on top of the turntable and turn it over. Rest it on an elevated surface, such as coffee cans.

With the table upside down, unscrew the three screws that are on the bottom of the Papst motor. This will reveal the ball bearing and allow you to remove the oil, flip the delrin thrust pad over and add new oil.

Below: You will want to remove the round cover noted with the red arrow.

View attachment 908020

Below: the cover removed showing the original yellowed oil in place since 1961 and the delrin thrust pad. While the oil may look ok, when I wiped it off with a cloth it was clearly dirty after having been in service for 56 years.

View attachment 907745

Below: the cover removed showing the ball bearing and original oil. Note that a little bit of the oil may splash out when removing the lid. Be careful not to loose the ball bearing.

View attachment 907746

Below: inspect the ball bearing for flat spots or damage. In my case it was fine, so I reused it. I measured it for posterity: 4mm. You could put a new ball bearing in if you like.

View attachment 907757

Below: Use isopropyl alcohol to clean bearing well, thrust pad and ball bearing. After cleaning the yellowed oil away, inspect the delrin thrust pad for a divot worn in from the ball bearing. If you have a substantial divot, flip it over and reseat it to expose a fresh delrin surface to the ball bearing.

View attachment 907747

Below: removing the divoted thrust pad. You may need to use a safety pin or tiny screwdriver to unseat it.

View attachment 907748

Below: flip it over and reseat it. There is now a fresh, flat surface that will contact the ball bearing.

View attachment 907749

Below: press it down and make sure it's seated flat. If it's not flat, find a tool to make it flush. Pushing on it with the rounded side of spoon worked for me. Be careful not to mar or indent the delrin surface.

View attachment 907750

Below: After cleaning, add new oil. And screw the bottom plate back on the motor. I use 3-IN-ONE brand motor oil SAE 20. (Label is blue and it says: engineered for 1/4 HP motors or larger) I added about 3 or 4 drops -- approximating the amount of oil that was there when I opened it up. Before plugging the unit back in, spin the motor by hand to make sure it is spinning freely.

View attachment 907751

Below: Enjoy your Empire for many more years!

View attachment 908023

thanks for the info, what else needs to oiled?

 

[monkboughtlunch]

And a very fine looking 298 it is, too! *drools*

That is a gorgeous turntable!!!

Thanks - I'm running a Denon 103R, and it sounds wonderful. I first tried a standard Denon 103; however, the 103R is superior (better detail especially in upper frequencies).

 

[monkboughtlunch]

thanks for the info, what else needs to oiled?

1. Stick a microfibre cloth in the platter spindle well and soak up the old oil. Then use a long cotton q tip and clean out the well with isopropyl alcohol. I then pour about a 1/4 teaspoon of 3-IN-ONE oil (see link above) in the well and rub a few drops on the platter shaft.
2. See below photo. Remove motor from grommets. Look for the two plastic washers (red arrows) and remove the old dried grease they contact using isoproply alcohol. Add new grease, such as Permatex W9 white lithium grease or Super Lube to the tracks those washers travel on. This allows motor to travel freely along the path.



As far as any other items to lube or grease, I think the tonearm bearings may be designed to not be serviced. I've never tried to lube them. Perhaps someone else can weigh in.

Also, the Papst motor may have an upper bearing. I've not tried to service that. Perhaps someone else can weigh in.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

If your red or green plastic power button has scratches or is hazy, I experimented with using Polywatch and it removed the scratches/haze from my button completely. Polywatch is designed to remove scratches on old plastic watch crystals.

https://www.amazon.com/Polywatch-Plastic-Crystal-Scratch-Remover/dp/B00E3T237C

 

[monkboughtlunch]

thanks for the info, what else needs to oiled?

Here's a before and after comparison on my unit after I removed the dirt and grease from the sliding motor plate. As you can see in the first picture, the original grease had dried up. I used Super Lube to re-grease where the white plastic washers contact metal. I think Super Lube (a synthetic) will likely last longer than white lithium grease. I added a drop of oil to the spring for enhanced corrosion resistance.

Below: before


Below: after

 

[monkboughtlunch]

Here are some better shots of the my vibration dampening Thorens TD-124 rubber mushrooms which are an exact fit for the rubber support cut out holes in the Empire 298 / 398 / 498 wood base.

I've noticed that the additional clearance afforded by these larger rubber feet allow for better motor heat dissipation compared to just using the tiny rubber feet that are pre-installed on the wood base.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

Regarding my first question on this page, I noticed a faint whirring noise on headphones. I suspected this might be the spacer in the motor mount. When I changed the grommets two years ago, the original spacers were held on with loctite. I had to heat it to remove it. When I re-installed new grommets I didn't use loctite when adding the spacer. I pulled the motor out today and retightened the spacer and then refastened the motor to the mounting screws. This fixed the issue. So, next time I drop the motor, I will add loctite to the spacers. I guess over time the spacers slightly loosen if you don't glue them in place with loctite, and as a result, can generate a faint vibration induced noise.

 

[empirelvr]

...As far as any other items to lube or grease, I think the tonearm bearings may be designed to not be serviced. I've never tried to lube them. Perhaps someone else can weigh in.

This is correct. There is, and should be, no lube in the tonearm bearings. If anything, one may want to blast the vertical and horizontal bearings with a high-power, 99% alcohol spray to get out any possible accumulated dust, nicotine residue, grit, and other grime that may have found it's way inside the bearings over the years.

It is especially important to not disassemble the 98 arm because the horizontal ball bearings aren't in a captured race and will spill out all over the place unless you are very, very lucky, or careful to the extreme.

Also, the Papst motor may have an upper bearing. I've not tried to service that. Perhaps someone else can weigh in.

Not so much a bearing as the shaft, and you can disassemble it fairly easily. Basically you have to remove the cage via the screws in the pillars, both upper and lower. I forget if there is any kind of retaining ring, but if there is it shouldn't be hard to do because I disassembled the 298/208's motor numerous times without difficulty. Depending on what kind of atmospheric conditions the 'table was in during it's life, nicotine etc may have accumulated in there and on the shaft so a good scrubbing might be in order. It's also a good way to really get to clean the outside rotor fins thoroughly.

 

[monkboughtlunch]

Not so much a bearing as the shaft, and you can disassemble it fairly easily. Basically you have to remove the cage via the screws in the pillars, both upper and lower. I forget if there is any kind of retaining ring, but if there is it shouldn't be hard to do because I disassembled the 298/208's motor numerous times without difficulty. Depending on what kind of atmospheric conditions the 'table was in during it's life, nicotine etc may have accumulated in there and on the shaft so a good scrubbing might be in order. It's also a good way to really get to clean the outside rotor fins thoroughly.

Thanks! Does anyone have pics of the Papst upper shaft cleaning / disassembly process?

 

[empirelvr]

Thanks! Does anyone have pics of the Papst upper shaft cleaning / disassembly process?

I don't but if there is some kind of retaining clip, (and my hazy memory keeps telling me there must have been) it will be in the area where you find the ball bearing that you pointed out above at the bottom of the motor. I remember the outer rotor popping easily off the windings.

 

[Sam Cogley]

As always, make sure that you use lithium grease that's marked as safe for plastic.