Some Empire Turntable History

[Troubador]

But what I came here to say was -
5 pin Eby male plugs on Ebay (Hammond/Leslie/Empire pattern)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Connector-...=item4191506176:g:b2MAAOSwv0tU7ecc:rk:15:pf:0

 

[doug s.]

But what I came here to say was -
5 pin Eby male plugs on Ebay (Hammond/Leslie/Empire pattern)

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Connector-...=item4191506176:g:b2MAAOSwv0tU7ecc:rk:15:pf:0

this may have been posted elsewhere in this thread:
https://www.ebay.com/sch/delrayaudiosales/m.html?item=173723745782&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2562

i bought a set; wery nice. and, the seller said he'd make the (rare) anti-skate kit for the 98 & 980 tonearms, but you will have to drill the arm yourself to attach. i didn't query the price, as my 398 has this device already, and i've put an o-l rega arm on my 498, so i am not sure i need the anti-skate for my 980 arm. but i might mount it on my viontage fairchild 411... hmmm.

and, there's also this:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/301558683160/

there's another one on ebay for a few dollars less, but the thread pitch on the nut in the headshell is not correct for the 98/980 headhsell screw.

doug s.

 

[RumpyLover]

The Philips screws you mention were, ISTR, cross-drilled and pinned at the factory. If you search this thread there are posts on this topic suggesting that these are best left alone. Trying to turn the screw without removing the pin will shear the screw off. I am no expert - search this thread and you will find advice from those who are.

Thanks Troubador. I’ve pretty much decided to leave well enough alone... handle with care!

 

[bolero]

Thanks Troubador. I’ve pretty much decided to leave well enough alone... handle with care!

FYI the lids will slide right off as-is....either forward, or vertically after you raise it. the nut is square and the hinge slides over it

 

[rickl]

Not sure if anyone cares but here is my Empire. I found it in my uncle's closet and asked about it. A few years later he brought it to me (complete with motor falling out of its mounts, ...).

I haven't done much to it. A buddy found a belt for it. No idea if it is the correct one.

Any idea what I got? 398? I think it is from the early 60s.

 

[MisterDK]

Not sure if anyone cares but here is my Empire. I found it in my uncle's closet and asked about it. A few years later he brought it to me (complete with motor falling out of its mounts, ...).

I haven't done much to it. A buddy found a belt for it. No idea if it is the correct one.

Any idea what I got? 398? I think it is from the early 60s.

View attachment 1404953
View attachment 1404956

Well, of course we care. ^_^

It looks like a “398” to me!
You should find casting dates under the platter and the top, possibly the belt cover too. The motor may also have a date stamped in ink. Early to mid ‘60s is probably right.
If the motor is “falling out”, get yourself new Lord’s rubber mounts from peebay. They should be replaced anyway.
You can also get new, replacement cartridge sleds on peebay.
There’s plenty of info about cleaning and maintenance all over the internet.

Your uncle gave you a great turntable!

 

[rickl]

You should find casting dates under the platter

Your uncle gave you a great turntable!

Under the platter says 3/14/62. Thanks for the tip.

His house got caught up in the fires around Malibu so I'm very grateful.

Got Lord rubber grommet isolators ordered.

 

[MisterDK]

..His house got caught up in the fires around Malibu so I'm very grateful..

Sorry to hear that.
That four letter word is always a worry where I live.

 

[canuckaudiog]

Hey all,

I am happy to be posting in here, since that means I am looking for and will likely eventually own an Empire turntable.

I've read through much of this thread and it has been enlightening. I have narrowed my search down to two possible candidates for my dream Empire turntable.

First one is an Empire 698 from the original owner, complete with all documentation, packaging, etc. A tab has broken off on the tonearm rest and the cuing does not work (surprise surprise). It comes with a new anti-skate spring and cuing solenoid. It is complete with tonearm, headshell, platter, etc., and is in excellent condition overall. Perhaps one of the nicest examples I've seen. No cartridge.

Second one is an Empire 598 III in great condition, with a new belt. Turntable supposedly works perfectly. I have no idea if the motor grommets are replaced, if the motor has been oiled, or any of that. Seems like a bit more of a gamble, but it does look to be in nice shape but does suffer from corrosion and some finish missing on the tonearm. The base/plinth is in excellent shape. Comes with an Audio Technica AT-10 cartridge.

Price being the same, which one would you go for? They are both tempting in their own ways, the 698 especially since it is unique but I know of its potential pitfalls. If you were me, which one would you take? I do not mind doing work on turntables and in fact love doing that kind of restoration, so that isn't much of a problem for me. It's more, which one seems like the better buy?

 

[bgymnastics]

Hey all,

I am happy to be posting in here, since that means I am looking for and will likely eventually own an Empire turntable.

I've read through much of this thread and it has been enlightening. I have narrowed my search down to two possible candidates for my dream Empire turntable.

First one is an Empire 698 from the original owner, complete with all documentation, packaging, etc. A tab has broken off on the tonearm rest and the cuing does not work (surprise surprise). It comes with a new anti-skate spring and cuing solenoid. It is complete with tonearm, headshell, platter, etc., and is in excellent condition overall. Perhaps one of the nicest examples I've seen. No cartridge.

Second one is an Empire 598 III in great condition, with a new belt. Turntable supposedly works perfectly. I have no idea if the motor grommets are replaced, if the motor has been oiled, or any of that. Seems like a bit more of a gamble, but it does look to be in nice shape but does suffer from corrosion and some finish missing on the tonearm. The base/plinth is in excellent shape. Comes with an Audio Technica AT-10 cartridge.

Price being the same, which one would you go for? They are both tempting in their own ways, the 698 especially since it is unique but I know of its potential pitfalls. If you were me, which one would you take? I do not mind doing work on turntables and in fact love doing that kind of restoration, so that isn't much of a problem for me. It's more, which one seems like the better buy?

well since i own a 698 and love it i would go for that one. only problem i have with mine is that i put the wrong kind of oil on my cuing and now it goes down too fast so i just do it manually.

 

[MRL_Audio]

The 598 is the one to get. The 698 has too many foibles and pitfalls that are an irreversible issues. Broken tone arm stand. Broken headshell. Cueing but you can find replacements. The 598 is a similarly beautiful machine that just works. Less concerns. My two cents.

 

[doug s.]

Hey all,

I am happy to be posting in here, since that means I am looking for and will likely eventually own an Empire turntable.

I've read through much of this thread and it has been enlightening. I have narrowed my search down to two possible candidates for my dream Empire turntable.

First one is an Empire 698 from the original owner, complete with all documentation, packaging, etc. A tab has broken off on the tonearm rest and the cuing does not work (surprise surprise). It comes with a new anti-skate spring and cuing solenoid. It is complete with tonearm, headshell, platter, etc., and is in excellent condition overall. Perhaps one of the nicest examples I've seen. No cartridge.

Second one is an Empire 598 III in great condition, with a new belt. Turntable supposedly works perfectly. I have no idea if the motor grommets are replaced, if the motor has been oiled, or any of that. Seems like a bit more of a gamble, but it does look to be in nice shape but does suffer from corrosion and some finish missing on the tonearm. The base/plinth is in excellent shape. Comes with an Audio Technica AT-10 cartridge.

Price being the same, which one would you go for? They are both tempting in their own ways, the 698 especially since it is unique but I know of its potential pitfalls. If you were me, which one would you take? I do not mind doing work on turntables and in fact love doing that kind of restoration, so that isn't much of a problem for me. It's more, which one seems like the better buy?

"price being the same...." well, it depends on what that is. all things being equal, i'd go for the 598; it's much more common, and has less issues. but i'd also not rule out the rare 498, (suspension, but w/one-piece platter), or the earlier non-suspended iterations. and some of the older models have rare anti-stake 980 arms; and i know of at least one empire retro-vendor that will fab up the anti-skate kit if you really want one. (i found an old empire w/original 980 arm w/anti-skate, and it's really sweet.) i got a really nice 598ii for my daughter, for <$300 shipped; so good deals are out there, for those with patience...

doug s.

 

[canuckaudiog]

The 598 is the one to get. The 698 has too many foibles and pitfalls that are an irreversible issues. Broken tone arm stand. Broken headshell. Cueing but you can find replacements. The 598 is a similarly beautiful machine that just works. Less concerns. My two cents.

"price being the same...." well, it depends on what that is. all things being equal, i'd go for the 598; it's much more common, and has less issues. but i'd also not rule out the rare 498, (suspension, but w/one-piece platter), or the earlier non-suspended iterations. and some of the older models have rare anti-stake 980 arms; and i know of at least one empire retro-vendor that will fab up the anti-skate kit if you really want one. (i found an old empire w/original 980 arm w/anti-skate, and it's really sweet.) i got a really nice 598ii for my daughter, for <$300 shipped; so good deals are out there, for those with patience...

doug s.

Thanks fellas. I appreciate the straight talk.

The only allure of the 698 is the fact it is in excellent shape and looks to be restorable, save for the likely potential issue with the headshell. I suppose the question is, how much more mileage can I get out of it, and am I willing to deal with it when the time comes? I did ask the owner of the 698 for more details, and he told me this:

"Hi, the tonearm is in excellent shape. Full disclosure, the headshell finger tab fell off once, long time ago, and I epoxied it back onto the headshell. It's not original, but it's functional and really, when people look at the turntable they won't even notice. You know that the cueing does not work, but I think someone with electrical know how can probably fix it. That's my opinion. Everything else is in great shape. It's been stored away for the past 25 years."

This likely means that the headshell mount is OK.. for now. And likely can be serviced to working condition again (for the cuing). Question is, how simple is that to do? I read somewhere that the cuing issue with the 698 was an unknown problem with no known fix. Is that still the case?

Decisions decisions.. seems right now the 598 is the way to go, but the 698 is very tempting.

 

[LesE]

I've owned my 698 for 7 or 8 years now and the headshell mount is still intact. It is very delicate and I tend to avoid messing with it as much as possible. It's very important to not tighten the collar any more than necessary than to provide good electrical contact.

The cuing circuit is not very complicated and most electrical issues shouldn't be too difficult to repair assuming that the solenoid coil is not defective. One thing I've found is that the cuing will sometimes stick in the up position if the turntable is not used for some time. When this happens, it's just a matter of setting the cuing to the down position and applying a small amount of downward pressure to the cuing platform. I find the 698 cuing to be very smooth and the optical end of record lift is perhaps the most gentle that I have experienced.

Regardless of whether you get the 598 or 698, your best replacement belt will be the Esoteric Audio True Speed belt. Most other belts will result in slightly fast speed.

https://www.esotericsound.com/access.htm

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...urntable-history.278075/page-81#post-10366090

 

[canuckaudiog]

I've owned my 698 for 7 or 8 years now and the headshell mount is still intact. It is very delicate and I tend to avoid messing with it as much as possible. It's very important to not tighten the collar any more than necessary than to provide good electrical contact.

The cuing circuit is not very complicated and most electrical issues shouldn't be too difficult to repair assuming that the solenoid coil is not defective. One thing I've found is that the cuing will sometimes stick in the up position if the turntable is not used for some time. When this happens, it's just a matter of setting the cuing to the down position and applying a small amount of downward pressure to the cuing platform. I find the 698 cuing to be very smooth and the optical end of record lift is perhaps the most gentle that I have experienced.

Regardless of whether you get the 598 or 698, your best replacement belt will be the Esoteric Audio True Speed belt. Most other belts will result in slightly fast speed.

https://www.esotericsound.com/access.htm

https://audiokarma.org/forums/index...urntable-history.278075/page-81#post-10366090

That is some exceptional work you've done detailing the belt vs. speed issue! Wow!! Thank you so much for this information.

 

[canuckaudiog]

After some further contemplation and also viewing some videos on YouTube of the 698, I've come to the conclusion that I think regardless of how nice the 698 is, it's not the right turntable. In my head every time I think about this turntable I always picture the 598. It's the one I've seen and come to love, and it's the one I imagine when I own one of these. Yes certainly looks should not always be a dictator of audio purchases, but in this case, I know the 598 is a fine sounding turntable. All of them are. So, I should just pick the one I want and considering it is going to be less difficult to keep running, I think it makes the most sense for me.

With that said, the one I am looking at does have a small amount of corrosion on the tonearm, and I am wondering if there is a way to clean this up and make it look more presentable? I understand that this is a pot metal and is simply a finish, so it's not as easy as sanding it down or refinishing. I am just wondering if there may be some way I can restore some of the gold finish and have it look halfway decent so as not to be bothersome. Here is a picture of the table in question:

As you can see, quite a bit of corrosion on the tonearm there. It's the only thing holding me back from buying this one. The rest of it, however, is in excellent condition - the platter, plinth and base all look great, exactly how I want it. But this bit on the tonearm is quite detracting. Any thoughts? Or am I hooped and maybe should hold out for a nicer one?

 

[seventy1]

I have a 598 III that also shows some corrosion on top of the tonearm pivot. It doesn't stand out in these photos, but it's more of a spotted, mottled appearance. Also, the coating wears off at the touch points, like the tonearm lift hook. I really don't think much about the imperfections. These are old tables and they look old, some patina just adds to the character. Any repair attempt short of a complete strip and replating, would not be perfect either and that would bother me much more than natural aging.

 

[seventy1]

What does bother me is the motor whir or hum that you can hear next to the table when music isn't playing. I've replaced grommets and lubed and more recently tried replacing the capacitor. Nothing has made a significant improvement, I've read that it's mostly fan noise. The capacitor did seem to help spin-up time and torque while dragging a discwasher brush. For reference, I used a ceiling fan capacitor sourced from the auction place. I attached the tab to the table using the screw that held the original capacitor bracket.

 

[Schmidlapper]

I built a square frame from four pieces of 1” x 1” wood, made two notches in the frame for power and audio cables, added four felt self stick feet, cut a foam board to fit tight inside the frame as a bottom, laid in a couple old wash cloths for some sound deadening, removed the four plastic button feet from my 598 and set it on top this frame. If done correctly doesn’t alter the 598 in anyway that can’t be undone. Mine is already majorly modded. This has significantly reduces the motor noise on mine.

Bill

What does bother me is the motor whir or hum that you can hear next to the table when music isn't playing. I've replaced grommets and lubed and more recently tried replacing the capacitor. Nothing has made a significant improvement, I've read that it's mostly fan noise. The capacitor did seem to help spin-up time and torque while dragging a discwasher brush. For reference, I used a ceiling fan capacitor sourced from the auction place. I attached the tab to the table using the screw that held the original capacitor bracket.

 

[canuckaudiog]

I have a 598 III that also shows some corrosion on top of the tonearm pivot. It doesn't stand out in these photos, but it's more of a spotted, mottled appearance. Also, the coating wears off at the touch points, like the tonearm lift hook. I really don't think much about the imperfections. These are old tables and they look old, some patina just adds to the character. Any repair attempt short of a complete strip and replating, would not be perfect either and that would bother me much more than natural aging.

Yes.. true! The rest of the turntable is great, even the headshell looks excellent.. so perhaps I should just live with it. I guess the question is, what are the chances of an excellent specimen coming along and do I really want to wait until then? I do wonder if there is something I could apply to blend the finish a little bit, but maybe not.

Seems I am beginning to make up my mind. Thank you for your help, everyone.