Interesting. I was very impressed hearing 3.7s at Sea Cliff. While they lacked the low end of the 20.x series, they were improved in coherency and low level resolution despite using ribbons - which have a wonderful top end. HP was using either VPI Classic or EMM Labs SACD player through Veloce line stage, Mac 2301s with Valhalla cabling at the time.
Speakers Wake Up Too Loud?
- Thread starter musichal
- Start date
I never noticed that with mine.
bobins08
Celebrating Life
I notice that with my entire system. I can hear it improve as it warms up. I have tubes in the preamp that like to warm up and have signal passed through them, the power amp likes to be warm, same thing with my DAC, and even when I swap cartridges in an already warmed up system certain ones sound better after about 10-20 minutes of play. I can hear it, so can many of my guests.
Speakers could be the in the same boat as they have both mechanical and electrical parts.
Happiness is a warm stereo.
WaynerN
Addicted Member
A common behavior with low efficiency speakers, like somewhere in the 85-db/m/w variety. And I think its a common complaint that they don't really "bloom" 'till you have them somewhat cranked. I think my Polk SDA-SRS 2.3s were like that. They were big speakers with multiple drivers but it did seem like you had to put some juice to them before the magic started, thus making low level listening rather boring. Perhaps they fell into the proverbial party speaker category. I no longer have them (wish I still did) but they were so big, I had no place to hide them when I got the Martin Logan reQuests.
That was my original thought when I first got my Ohm model I's which are rated to handle 1500 watts. Now I like them at any volume. Not sure if they loosened up after being idle for years, or if installing the SBA's helped, or if I just got used to them.
WaynerN
Addicted Member
I hate to bring it up (again) but its true that amplifier "synergy" plays a key role in speaker performance and behavior. I have lots of amps and speakers. It took a lot of effort thru trial and error to mate amp to speaker. Think all amps sound the same....not at my house. Most of my smaller amps are the 120 WRMS per channel variety, but boy do they behave differently with speaker loads.
I also believe that speakers (surrounds, spiders) need some time to loosen up. I have witnessed this myself. If capacitors need some time to fully charge up, I can buy that too. Maybe some smaller bookshelves with smallish woofers might fall into this catagory, because of their smallish mid/bass driver and perhaps that is the nature of smaller bookshelf speakers as a general rule (there are exceptions). My JBL Studio 530s have a 4 1/2" woofer and the bass is amzing, beating some speakers that have 10" woofers. That is from improving speaker technology.
Anything mechanical breaks in or changes over time, there is zero doubt about that. The amount of change depends on the device and the environment it is in. How much electronics change is a lot more debatable. But I do believe some speakers sound better with some amps.......but I am inclined to think synergy is more based on design than burn in.
Poultrygeist
Lunatic Member
I find myself turning the music down to hear more. Resolving detail at low levels is always my goal.
A need to turn up the volume to hear more detail can mean poor resolution.
A need to turn up the volume to hear more detail can mean poor resolution.
DaveVoorhis
Addicted Member
Yes. There may be a simple technical explanation for synergy: there's an inevitable interaction between the speakers and amplifier -- based on amplifier circuit topology, choice of components, and speaker and crossover design -- which results in a particular acoustic frequency response curve. For some combinations of speakers and amplifiers, the curve comes closer to the ideal that a listener finds most euphonic (which varies from listener to listener). We call that "synergy".
For other combinations, the resulting frequency response curve is that which a listener finds not to be euphonic. We call that "lack of synergy".
Regarding burn-in, prior to use in some sensitive circuits, tubes are sometimes "aged" by running them for a number of hours (I read an article yesterday about certain tubes used in some test equipment; they were aged for 10 hours) to allow their characteristics to stabilise. This effect doesn't occur with other components, at least not those of recognised quality from mainstream suppliers.
bobins08
Celebrating Life
Synergy describes how individual components work together when put into a system. The design of a component such as an amplifier, be it solid state class B, class AB, or a tube design is a means to an end. Matching that component/ amplifier to a speaker is the challenge for building a system. Once one finds a combination that works for them they declare “good synergy”. They found a combination that optimizes what they like and set out to achieve. As mentioned, the reasons certain combination work well can usually be explained.
I find burn-in as temporary and it exist with both mechanical and electrical components. Equipment that is stored for very long periods may go through this phenomena again.
Warm up is simply a transition state and it is there at every power up to some extent. Some systems may not be resolving enough to even hear it. Some components get to full steady state performance faster than others. For example, in my experience tubes amplifiers take longer to get to steady state than transistors amplifiers although both sound their best once they do.
twiiii
Lunatic Member
The ears sensitivity changes with level, so having speakers with a warmer and deeper sound are always chosen for lower listening levels, Where speakers that are going to rattle walls and shake plates off shelves are more apt tp have a different balance. Women prefer the highs to be rolled because most men can't hear thunder above 5 kHz or so. Women usually don't like tremendous levels of bass either as their hearing hasn't been compromised either. With very loud levels when I was installing discos I would put a 3 dip centered at 2500 HZ two octaves wide to reduce the extra intensity of big horns from Altec and JBL. Never with Klipsch. Bass was always boosted blow 60 to 70 HZ 6 to 8 db to get every one stimulated and dancing. And then I Had a nice roll-off above 6000 hz being down about 6 to 8 db to reduce hearing fatigue at 18, KHZ. I mean when you have 125 to 128 db peaks coming out of the midrange horns at 4 ft you have to be careful. Normal levels on the dance floor were from 104 to 110 db including average peaks with an additional 6 db head room. But most of that level was the driving bass. between 125 and 30 HZ where we chopped off the lower bass. Of course in the states we had to reduce the levels because of noise regulations, but in old Mexico is was always full speed ahead and the pedal to the metal. I wish I had been able to visit Europe during the time disco was king, to see how they did their recreations. I wonder if the systems sounded that much different .
Of course today with big Power and line arrays concert levels easily out perform the disco systems we had in the 70's and 80's or 90's in Old Mexico. No wonder people are going deaf!!!!
Of course today with big Power and line arrays concert levels easily out perform the disco systems we had in the 70's and 80's or 90's in Old Mexico. No wonder people are going deaf!!!!
sKiZo
Hates received: 92644 43.20°N 85.50°W
I suppose that's why we call them "systems". In a system, everything has to work well together to achieve the desired result, or you're willing to compromise.
- Get different speakers
- Play with EQ or room treatments to fudge the bands at different SPLs
- Tinker with the input levels to the speakers
- Mod the speaker crossovers to compensate for your preferences
- Work with different impedances to see if you can get that synergy that works with your other equipment
You could also try some high end "audiophile grade" cables just to say you did. No promises there. ;-}
Check back with us in a decade or so and let us know how it all worked out. <G>
- Get different speakers
- Play with EQ or room treatments to fudge the bands at different SPLs
- Tinker with the input levels to the speakers
- Mod the speaker crossovers to compensate for your preferences
- Work with different impedances to see if you can get that synergy that works with your other equipment
You could also try some high end "audiophile grade" cables just to say you did. No promises there. ;-}
Check back with us in a decade or so and let us know how it all worked out. <G>
biscuithead
Me likes the eargasm retroplasm...
Yep.
My B&Ws are my only "all level" speakers. My Cornwalls come in second on this element.
45rpmspinner
Super Member
The Grandfather of all underground parties, David Mancuso, was an audiophile. His systems known for not being excessively loud, just clear and precise.
In the years before he died, he was a promoter of "Audiophile Nights" in various clubs, where people would come to hear a specific records played on nice systems.
At least in latter days, he used an array of K-horns at his parties.
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The best sounding speakers I've come across have the ability to sound good with increasing volume levels.
If they don't sound particularly involving at low volume levels it's because the playback might not be being played at levels the recording might be intended to be heard best, imo.
If they don't sound particularly involving at low volume levels it's because the playback might not be being played at levels the recording might be intended to be heard best, imo.
musichal
poet emeritus
When I bought the James Gang's new record, Rides Again, some years ago (ahem), it was printed right there on the label "Made Loud To Be Played Loud." Yep, Funk #49 sounded better at eleven.
