SRA Setting, Is it worth the bother

[Slick Willie]

All of this is fascinating and informative, yet also overwhelming!
I own both Shibata and FG fine lines, and currently I'm just eyeing them in on on VTA. Now I need to worry about SRA and purchase a USB microscope.....oh well.
And what happens when I switch from a Dynaflex to a 200 gram press?
I would like to just set it up and enjoy without fine tuning to every LP.
To some degree, are not the VTA/SRA settings all a compromise?

 

[Balifly]

All of this is fascinating and informative, yet also overwhelming!
I own both Shibata and FG fine lines, and currently I'm just eyeing them in on on VTA. Now I need to worry about SRA and purchase a USB microscope.....oh well.
And what happens when I switch from a Dynaflex to a 200 gram press?
I would like to just set it up and enjoy without fine tuning to every LP.
To some degree, are not the VTA/SRA settings all a compromise?

The VTA/SRA decided on by the manufacture was a compromise.

The setting we use need not be so exact, most of the time.

The difference between a very thin LP and the thickest LPs is audible to most users.

Some may not want to bother with changing the setting.

They may have a unit with the most appropriate tone arm setting, cartridge and stylus reserved for each of those types of LPs.

It is possible and not that difficult for those with multiple turn tables set ups.

 

[Slick Willie]

The VTA/SRA decided on by the manufacture was a compromise.

The setting we use need not be so exact, most of the time.

The difference between a very thin LP and the thickest LPs is audible to most users.

Some may not want to bother with changing the setting.

They may have a unit with the most appropriate tone arm setting, cartridge and stylus reserved for each of those types of LPs.

It is possible and not that difficult for those with multiple turn tables set ups.

Ha!

 

[tabarddn51]

Hi Guy's, Interesting holiday chatter.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) we are not all the same. Hearing like the ability to smell, is different between people. For me I cannot hear the difference between LP thicknesses, however I could plainly hear when the previously fantastic sounding Mercury LP sounded crap.
The ideas for the bubble wrap actually was not mine but suggested by a member of Lenco Heaven, I made one up several years ago & at the time did not think it offered any improvement. However I pressed it into service on the off chance when I found a couple more in an Opp Shop. And as I said before yes it is audibly better with the several pre 1968 LP's I have tried so far. I do not believe the bubble wrap is making a difference, just the fact that it is a convenient spacer which slightly nullifies the angle, as my Temmad arm is raised up.
When you think about the money & time that we put into our vinyl collection, I do not think that spending $100 on a USB microscope, then the several hours required to learn how to use it is extreme. It is no different, to me anyway, when years ago I used to spend hours tuning my car with a strobe.

Cheers Derek

 

[Pio1980]

Hi Guy's, Interesting holiday chatter.
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your perspective) we are not all the same. Hearing like the ability to smell, is different between people. For me I cannot hear the difference between LP thicknesses, however I could plainly hear when the previously fantastic sounding Mercury LP sounded crap.
The ideas for the bubble wrap actually was not mine but suggested by a member of Lenco Heaven, I made one up several years ago & at the time did not think it offered any improvement. However I pressed it into service on the off chance when I found a couple more in an Opp Shop. And as I said before yes it is audibly better with the several pre 1968 LP's I have tried so far. I do not believe the bubble wrap is making a difference, just the fact that it is a convenient spacer which slightly nullifies the angle, as my Temmad arm is raised up.
When you think about the money & time that we put into our vinyl collection, I do not think that spending $100 on a USB microscope, then the several hours required to learn how to use it is extreme. It is no different, to me anyway, when years ago I used to spend hours tuning my car with a strobe.

Cheers Derek

Anything under the record is going to affect the sound in some greater or lesser manner.

 

[Calypte]

I happen to believe VTA and proper cartridge set up is important. However, there is this article on VTA adjustment that offers a counterpoint that is difficult to refute. When you look at it this way, well....uncertainties start to creep in.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html

Cheers
Mister Pig

I'm late to the party. I'm responding to a post from Nov 9, 2018. But I read the article. I'm convinced. I'll stop obsessing about SRA and VTA.

 

[tabarddn51]

Hi Calypte, There is no need obsess over setting SRA, just set it correctly for your set up & leave it,
I am well aware of Geoff's article, however I believe he missed the point. He was responding to an article by another reviewer, trying to find the "sweet spot" by very fine movements. But he did not establish what SRA angle his stylus was actually set to.
When I did my set up I was gob smacked at how much I had to heighten my Temaad arm, so much so, that I even had to add a spacer at the front of the cartridge as well. If had not been able to confirm the angle, I would have never, never set it as high as it is now in a million years, It is ridiculously high, but it now sounds amazing. I actually took my arm & cart to a friends house to verify I was not "miss hearing". I built a quick reset gauge so I could change the height from what is con-sieved as the norm "standard parallel arm". He to blown away by the difference & thankfully confirmed my findings.
I have trialed so called $500 SUPER interconnect cables in my system that did not make 20% the difference this did. For less that $100 for me it's a no brainer.

Cheers

 

[Gibsonian]

My experience is that the sweet spot is there, but for my ear it is hard to distinguish the best position, but I keep coming back to a similar place. I think the sweet spot might be wider than what some would have us believe. I have experienced raising the arm at pivot point too high, causing a false "better highs" which was really less highs, too much mids. Long term listening confirms this mistake for me. I attribute some of this error in adjustment to loss of high frequency hearing, i.e. I'm no young buck anymore. A good pair of young ears (I need to do this myself), a trainable set that is, could be handy in setting VTA. I think the sweet spot might be more recognizable, more quickly discernable, for a fully functioning set of ears, which could explain why some find it to be an exacting position, and some don't.

So find it truly, best ya can, then set and forget it is best. But that big knob just setting there, allowing adjustment while playing, is hard to resist I'll tell ya.

 

[mkane]

My obsession with SRA starts with the cost of the cartridge. M91ED I don't obsess.
The cartridge in the pic warrants a bit more.

 

[Pio1980]

I recall the "sweet spot" being a point almost like an optimised optical focus back when I was fussing over this.

 

[tabarddn51]

HI, I TOTALLY AGREE TO mkane, THE SPHERICAL, ELLIPTICAL STYLI ARE MY MORE TOLERANT THAT THE SPECIAL CUT STYLI, I THINK THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE DISCUSSING THIS SUBJECT.
CHEERS

 

[Pio1980]

HI, I TOTALLY AGREE TO mkane, THE SPHERICAL, ELLIPTICAL STYLI ARE MY MORE TOLERANT THAT THE SPECIAL CUT STYLI, I THINK THIS HAS BEEN ONE OF THE PROBLEMS WITH PEOPLE DISCUSSING THIS SUBJECT.
CHEERS

Indeed. The line contact type will be critical for SRA, the hyperelliptical less so. The spot contact elliptical and sphericals not so much, VTA here is the main considerations.
SRA related to the angle of the cutting facet edges on the cutter tool, the VTA relates to the angle of cutter motion. The two should have an industry constant standard relationship, but may not in detail. Afaik, both should have been standardised when the CD-4 disc cutting standard became the mastering standard for cutting LPs.

 

[AvFan]

This has been a very good read and thanks to @tabarddn51 for starting this thread. I was hoping someone could answer a few things for me regarding setting SRA.

• For the typical line contact stylus shape (second from the right in the chart below) is the SRA measured from the record surface to the "line" and not the trailing edge of the stylus like Ortofon's Replicant?
• How many degrees (0.1, .5, 1.0, 1.5) of change are required to hear a reasonable difference from the optimum SRA? With my on-the-fly adjuster I can change the SRA +/- 1.9 degrees. For my 10" tonearm this is about 8mm up or down. FYI, I read the article @Mister Pig linked and found it worthwhile.
• It seems some folks adjust SRA by ear even after using a USB microscope and other tools. Some only use listening to set SRA. What records (artist, album or even individual track) are good to set SRA by ear? Are headphones adequate to hear the changes?
• What exactly should I be listening for when adjusting SRA on the fly?

 

[tabarddn51]

Hi AvFan, Yes that is my understanding, for Hyper elliptical & Line contact the stylus point to measure is the centre line of the stylus profile. Weather you can set it by ear or not depends of your hearing ability. I can not, however for my Shibata stylus as I mentioned before it was so far from what is considered 'normal" I would never have known this without the USB microscope.
I am currently using & very much enjoying the sound from a 103d which has an Elliptical stylus & have not bothered, due to it's stylus profile,to adjust it.

Cheers

 

[AvFan]

@tabarddn51 : Thanks for the reply. A USB microscope arrives tomorrow and I'll see how close I've set my retipped Shelter 501II to the 92 degree SRA. I now have an Easy VTA adjuster for my Jelco SA-750E and it can easily adjust to one hundredth of a mm which is a tiny change in SRA where 1mm vertical equals .23 degrees. Once I set the SRA I'll see if I can hear a difference and by how much of plus or minus SRA. Still looking for thoughts on what records are best to use when listening for changes in SRA and what folks listen for when making changes.

 

[bimasta]

This has been a very good read...

Are headphones adequate to hear the changes?

For me headphones are ideal; they must be good h'phones of course, with good nuance because I'm listening for small clues. I can make all adjustments and hear the results instantly, while standing by the turntable, without all those trips back and forth to the 'sweet spot' and relying on memory. I listen for stereo-imaging primarily. But if I optimize that, and lose something else, then I have to rethink things, and aim for the best balance of qualities.

 

[AvFan]

For me headphones are ideal; they must be good h'phones of course, with good nuance because I'm listening for small clues. I can make all adjustments and hear the results instantly, while standing by the turntable, without all those trips back and forth to the 'sweet spot' and relying on memory. I listen for stereo-imaging primarily. But if I optimize that, and lose something else, then I have to rethink things, and aim for the best balance of qualities.

I have a Schiit headphone amp and a pair of mid-level Grado headphones; I hope they muster up. So many recordings are assembled versus a recording of a group with mics. Do you use particular records that you find are best for setting SRA? I have a copy of Muddy Waters, Folk Singer. What do you think of using that record to set SRA? Or a record like Steely Dan, Aja?

 

[bimasta]

Do you use particular records that you find are best for setting SRA? I have a copy of Muddy Waters, Folk Singer. What do you think of using that record to set SRA? Or a record like Steely Dan, Aja?

No particular records, just very good ones, and Folk Singer is certainly very good. And I use classical, especially chamber music (strings plus piano has both stroked and struck sounds, quite different, and long decay) — far more subtleties to 'tune in' for.

 

[cafe latte]

I happen to believe VTA and proper cartridge set up is important. However, there is this article on VTA adjustment that offers a counterpoint that is difficult to refute. When you look at it this way, well....uncertainties start to creep in.

https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html

Cheers
Mister Pig

Exactly arm rear raised my 8mm on 9 inch arm is only 2 degrees rake angle also stylus is moving in the groove and records are different thicknesses. *mm is huge and it changes rake angle a tiny amount so this makes a mockery of obsessing about a mm or two. which in rake angle terms is nothing.
Chris

 

[AvFan]

Exactly arm rear raised my 8mm on 9 inch arm is only 2 degrees rake angle also stylus is moving in the groove and records are different thicknesses. *mm is huge and it changes rake angle a tiny amount so this makes a mockery of obsessing about a mm or two. which in rake angle terms is nothing.
Chris

Footnote #7 of the article @Mister Pig linked is the author's final thought on SRA:

*7 - I guess you're going to ask me what I consider the critical limits of SRA and arm height. Here, with my gear and brass ears I'm happy setting arm height within +/- 1 mm, and if pushed I could live with errors bigger than that. SRA/VTA matters of course, but in the real world not THAT much, rigidity, simplicity and lateral alignment are all more important.

A one mm change in my tonearm's height equates to .2 degree change in SRA. And how much does SRA have to change to be heard? I imagine it depends on the stylus profile, the music itself, and most importantly the listener's ears. I think I'll set mine using a 180gr record and then adjust it 2 or 3 mm either way and see if I hear anything. I'm also going to double check the alignment.