SRA Setting, Is it worth the bother

Now I need to worry about SRA and purchase a USB microscope.....oh well.

No need to worry. You'll have beautiful photos. They'll impress all your friends and they'll all purchase USB microscopes. Just buy stock in the USB microscope company.

I had VTA on-the-fly ages ago. I wanted that 'magic snap-into-focus' moment. I was so disappointed; it took big adjustments just hear any change. It was a VDH 1 stylus so it should have been dramatic.

As Sorgenti and so many here in this thread have said, "In the ballpark is fine." When tonearm designers began to build actual micrometers into the arm's structure I had to smile: it was the illusion of precision, and a very cheap add-on that boosted perceived value, prices and sales. As with so much in Audio, theory and mythology have dubious bearing on what we hear.
 
However to get the correct SRA, sometimes you need to literally shim the cartridge body, as I had to do with my set up. With the cart I am currently using I could not get the correct 92 deg setting with tone arm height adjustment alone.
Valuable post, tabarddin. To achieve 92° might need more range than your arm has — a shim overcomes that (though it's hassly).

It remains to be seen that 92° is correct...
 
Footnote #7 of the article @Mister PigI think I'll set mine using a 180gr record and then adjust it 2 or 3 mm either way and see if I hear anything. I'm also going to double check the alignment.

HTA (aka "overhang") may be just as imprecise and overrated as its sibling VTA. We spend so much time aligning, trying to get the stylus precisely in the bullseye — we might even buy expensive tools with magnifiers to get everything just right — and it may not even matter much.
 
I needed a starting point for SRA so I bought a cheap USB microscope that has a fixed power of about 40x. I couldn't get it all that close to the stylus on my Shelter 501 II but I can see it much better than with a 10x jeweler's loupe. I got the stylus SRA to 90 degrees by eye with the help of a protractor overlay using a blank sided 180gr record. VTA is right on at 20 degrees. The layered orange horizontal band is actually the edge of the record.

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When I looked closely I could see the line contact shape with a steeper angle on the trailing edge. Based on the VTA setting at 90 degrees I figured out the arm height adjustment to get to 92 degrees. I then listened at 92 degrees using headphones and adjusted until the sibilance was mostly gone which turned out to be 91 degrees. I'm going to leave it at that setting for a few days and play a few records to see how it sounds through my speakers. I found out the tonearm tail was 5 or 6mm lower than I figured for 90 degrees using just the 10x loupe verifying that using a USB microscope helps.

I did this on a Mac using QuickTime Player and a $0.99 protractor app from the Apple App Store. The opacity of the protractor can be adjusted to make it easier to set the SRA. The photo is a screenshot and I can zoom in to see additional detail. Lastly the Shelter 501 II is mounted to a Jelco SA-750E using an Easy VTA adjustment collar and an Ammonite 10mm spacer to account for the height of a record on the SP-25 above the top of the base.

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I find VTA settings somewhat useful but not nearly as
important to setups as overhang, VTF and antiskate. I can clearly hear IGD if my antiskate is too low for instance on my VPI Prime using a Hana SH cartridge. Azimuth set as close to perfect as possible is also audibly more of a factor to how cleanly my cartridge tracks. As for VTA, well.... with the Primes VTA tower I can experiment, on the fly, to my hearts desire and I have.

VTA set a bit high or low from an arm parallel condition doesn’t seem to cause mistracking or other distortion I can detect as long as overhang and zenith are on the money with VPIs excellent protractor. I do think VTA settings affect the perception of bass volume and treble enhancement or reduction. So I generally set VTA for the optimum bass response (after using an arm parallel starting point) of a 180gram record and if the highs are still present and not tipped up nor smoothed over I lock the VTA tower down and I’m through. Changing VTA for each records thickness beyond that point is an exercise in futility and a waste of energy in my own experiments.
 
Hi Bimasta, I agree VTA on the fly is one way to go & with the Temaad arm, provided you are careful you can do that. But I would never have taken it this far out of "what is called normality". I have had to raise the arm & add a spacer, I could have achieved the setting with just raising the arm, but then I would have had to alter the arm lift position as well. That then becomes a pain when I want to install one of my other cartridges. This is where measuring the SRA comes to the fore, because it is factual not "well is that better".
Just listening to Love Over Gold, phenomenal.

Cheers
Love over Gold is phenomenal!
 
I put a CD on the platter and took this photo hand held with my Nikon and a 55mm lens. I could focus within 3'' of the stylus. After I got the shot on my computer I just cropped it, which made it larger, and then printed it out on paper so I could draw lines on the paper and use a plastic protractor to measure my lines. I have come up with 8* - 12* from 90.

What are we supposed to be shooting for? 92*Stylus Rake Angle.jpg
 
What are we supposed to be shooting for? 92*

Yes. But I think there is some wiggle room given the method (usb microscope or good camera) to get a photo of the stylus. However that stylus looks like the tonearm tail is too high. If this is on a 9" arm it is approximately 1/4 degree for each mm of change in tonearm height. If you can't adjust your tonearm enough then I think the cartridge needs to be shimmed at its back edge. However, a CD is thinner than a record so before doing that I suggest you take a photo with stylus on a CD that is shimmed up to the thickness of the records you play most which will reduce the amount of SRA adjustment.

After I got my rig set up at close to 90 I moved it to what I thought was 92 then adjusted by ear to eliminate sibilance and improve soundstage. I backed SRA down about 1.5 degrees to get what sounded best to me using a variety of newer, older, 180gr and 150gr records. I'm close to finding the setting that works for all my records. I don't really know the exact SRA but the photo I took helped me get close enough that only minor changes were needed to get an acceptable sound.
 
Yes. But I think there is some wiggle room given the method (usb microscope or good camera) to get a photo of the stylus. However that stylus looks like the tonearm tail is too high. If this is on a 9" arm it is approximately 1/4 degree for each mm of change in tonearm height. If you can't adjust your tonearm enough then I think the cartridge needs to be shimmed at its back edge. However, a CD is thinner than a record so before doing that I suggest you take a photo with stylus on a CD that is shimmed up to the thickness of the records you play most which will reduce the amount of SRA adjustment.

After I got my rig set up at close to 90 I moved it to what I thought was 92 then adjusted by ear to eliminate sibilance and improve soundstage. I backed SRA down about 1.5 degrees to get what sounded best to me using a variety of newer, older, 180gr and 150gr records. I'm close to finding the setting that works for all my records. I don't really know the exact SRA but the photo I took helped me get close enough that only minor changes were needed to get an acceptable sound.
This has been discussed so many times on various forums due to contact patches on a stylus it is unlikely small changes in angle make the slightest difference to sound. Actually putting the arm rear all the way up and then all the way down and relistening blind you probably wont hear a difference. Very big differences you might if you stack platter mates and then remove them, but remember you are messing with tracking force to so likely this is what if anything you are hearing.
Chris
 
This has been discussed so many times on various forums due to contact patches on a stylus it is unlikely small changes in angle make the slightest difference to sound. Actually putting the arm rear all the way up and then all the way down and relistening blind you probably wont hear a difference. Very big differences you might if you stack platter mates and then remove them, but remember you are messing with tracking force to so likely this is what if anything you are hearing.
Chris

Any chance you could provide some links to those discussions?
 
Any chance you could provide some links to those discussions?
Go over to Ve and type it in it has been done to death.
Check the forums on the net, 8mm up is 2 degrees how much difference do you think 2 degrees can really make? Look also at 2 degrees and see what it is, if you look also at the patches of contact you see why that 2 degrees is not an issue.
Chris
 
Once again, this might just be the last thing you do, setting SRA. All it takes is time, damn near free. When my new deck arrives and I bolt on my Dynavector you can count on me getting SRA perfect. I find it silly you, whoever you are, can't hear a difference. If you just bolt it on and not check SRA, it may be 75°.
 
Go over to Ve and type it in it has been done to death.

This VE post from last summer https://www.vinylengine.com/turntab...5497&p=904454&hilit=stylus+rake+angle#p904454 seems to be on point and in it you linked an Analog Planet article from 2012 that describes pretty much what has been done to set SRA with a USB microscope. I didn't find much of any discussion on contact patch of various stylus as they relate to SRA other than conicals were thought to be less sensitive. VE is a huge forum so I may have missed the threads you are thinking about in my searches so if you can link a couple it would be appreciated.

... but remember you are messing with tracking force to so likely this is what if anything you are hearing.
Chris

The interaction between tracking force and SRA is mentioned quite often in the VE threads I looked at so I checked my VTF after making a 1.5 degree change in SRA. Lowering the tonearm raised the VTF by 0.1gr from 1.6 to 1.7gr. I need to give this some more thought as to the interaction between SRA and VTF. At the very least I think the interaction between the two is influenced by cart compliance .

Actually putting the arm rear all the way up and then all the way down and relistening blind you probably wont hear a difference.

I did hear a difference when changing the SRA by 1 degree. I moved the arm down 4.5mm (.23 degrees/mm for my 10" arm) and clearly heard less sibilance. This was done on the fly and during the same song using headphones. Many folks set their SRA by ear alone, others initially set it by using a camera, jeweler's loupe or usb microscope then fine tune it by ear. Apparently a lot of folks can hear the difference when adjusting SRA. Is that solely or mostly due to an increase in VTF or the change in SRA or some combination? I'll see, or hear, as the case may be.

Regardless, I achieved a pleasant result by reducing the SRA and the exercises noted above try to differentiate what is causing the positive changes in sound, not that it occurred.
 
Hi AVfan, thanks for your post, your Shelter 501 mk II has an Elliptical stylus, from what I now understand, adjusting SRA for Elliptical styli should have minimal of nil effect due to the profile shape. I am currently using a Denon 103d that has an Elliptical Stylus & have not bothered with trying to change the SRA.
However when I can get one of those excellent VTA adjusters that is on your arm then I may give it a go as that little devise would make it so easy. Do you know what the internal diameter of the keeper boss is.

Cheers Derek
 
@tabarddn51: I'm glad to hear the 103D is working for you and the Easy VTA is a very cool addition to my Jelco. I suspect you are correct that elliptical stylus are less sensitive to SRA changes. My Shelter originally came with an elliptical but mine was re-tipped with a line contact by Andy Kim and that may explain why I can hear SRA changes.
 
Hi AVFan, Sorry missed that, then for your Line Contact you need to view where the centre of the stylus is & that angle to is where you should align the SRA angle to,

Cheers
 
You want to get it close to perfect without a USB micro? Easy and not easy but you can do it within a few days of working on it.

Here we go.

Grab one 200 gram record. Something with female vocals. Nothing to crazy in the background,, but details are good. Something like The Wonderful sounds of female vocals.

Start with he's the poetry man and then Son of Preacher man .Her vocals should sound dry on long sustains parts But still have a liquid attribute to them, just slightly .

Son of a precher man should have clear vocals No distortion. Try to get some dryness in there. And when the trumpets kick in, they should cut right through with dynamics. Should make you say god dam! And get you grooving. Not subdued nor distorted at all. You should be looking foward to that part of the song

The grab 4 180 grams. Pink Floyd the wall, complex with but hard hitting drums on spots . Chris Cornell live in Sweden which is acoustic and raw. It's a good record for this because he has a rough dryness at times but because it's live acoustics, you should ahvw some spots with that close microphone sound.


Short lived echo parts if that makes sense. Not deeply piercing . Not the entire time. You'll hear it because 90% of his notes will vibrate your chest if it's too low. The guitar on, Thank you, for instance should have clear note separation and only get thick when he's strumming the chords hard.

And something like Elliott smith which can sound too glassy the moment it's off vocal wise. You should hear the shaking in his voice but never low siblance

And then Stevie Ray Vaughn which you want to hear crack in the drums but the solos should kick in at similar volumes. Solos should hit you but be smooth too.. Not piercing. This is on the recent 180 repress

Then grab some regular presses. 120-150 gram. Oldies. The Beatles, Balled of John and yoko for bass. Pink Floyd Dark side of the moon. Money should crack on the drums, but his vocals shouldn't be drowned out or overly glassy. The drums are key here. They should crack off the walls but not consistently shake, and the highs should not overpower, yet they should be equal in volume to the drums. The sax should sound detailed and float right over the record player with its imaging..But not harsh.

Anyway use something similar to all these examples. Start out with the tonearm level. If you can't see it level because it's tapered Just take pictures with your phone and zoom in from the perfect side angle. Try both with and without a flash. Get a bunch of pics. You can see the angle clearly and tell how much you're off. Get it strait as can be. And listen to all of the records.

You want to end up with all these records sounding right. From acoustic to Stevie ray Vaughn to Floyd

The things to listen for. Start with acoustic. Listen for vocals. Are they glassy sounding and chest rattling? Almost like the mic is too close to thier mouth? Start moving up in . 5-1mm increments Stop and listen. Also the instruments should have a good plucking sound yet fullness. If not, raise again. If you get to the point where the voice is so dry that for a minute you think it's great because it's smooth and easy to listen to. You'll soon realize how boring it sounds that way. And that the instruments lost volume and dynamics. Go back down a tiny bit. You want fullness, yet some dryness to keep it accurate to the recording. You'll hear it. Dynamics have to be there too. Repeat on other acoustic records at 180 gram.

Go to 200 listen to female. Same thing. Details should pop but voices should not be overly liquid. This is the one thing that most don't mention but I've had to deal with. When to low or even just 90 degrees,, the voices can have this microphonic reverb sound with certain carts. You want a mix of that and dryness. You'll hear it eventually.

Get these as close as you can. Move onto Money, or comfortably numb. You want the bass to crack. You still want it to hit the walls. But not the the point where you say Jesus christ this is amazing yet complete overkill. It won't be muddy. Just very present. As soon as that impact leaves, you're too high. You want to hear the guitar transition on comfortably numb. You want to hear the individual acoustic strings right before, there is no pain you are receiving.

Balled of john and yoko should groove and the bass should be fast and plentiful without the vocals drowning out. Bass should still shake you but in faster increments. Drums in transitions should be fast.

Stevie ray Vaughn. New 200 gram. You want that bass to absolutely slam the walls. Hard. But fast. You want the guitar when it comes it to equal that bass volume but not piercing.

Once you gat close to these things. Start moving in smaller increments. Make the ones you liked with a pen on the spindle or whatever that changes VTA. And go from there.

Work on getting the 180-200 gram records perfect. The vocals should be pleasing with a little airyness but without having the background instruments lower in volume. You shouldn't lose dynamics much. If so, only a little.

Once you get these guys perfect at the optimal recommend middle tracking force. Throw on the 120-150s again. They should sound great but possibly a little brighter and maybe a tiny less fullness. Maybe. If so, it's easy, just add .1-.2 tracking force And since you're already in the middle with the recommended tracking force, .2 still keeps you in there recommended, and under max. And I guarantee you they will sound perfect.


Just make sure you don't lose dynamics. Which I found is more related to the perfect spot. You can lose them going to far up or down. Also when you got that sweet spot. Yes the vocals and instruments should snap into place. However the sound stage on them should expand also. It's like a snap into place, then strong parts expand outwards a bit from the middle. Not outwards to inwards. But Inwards out.
.
For instance it's 1.5 for my empire 600 lac. With the 120-150s I go to 1.65 TF. And I'm good to go.

My system has never sounding this perfect and while it sounds like alot to do. It's not once you get the hang it. A few days and you'll have it perfect and say to yourself it was all worth it

Now am I at 92 degrees?. Maybe. It looks dam close. Maybe 92.5-93,, but all tips are cut differently. Like my empire the back end is cut further to the front making the tip not centered. Plus Empires similar to mine seem to like a little postive VTA. The point is the sound will tell you when it's right. Too many variables imo for 92 to be the end all be all.

And that's why I don't get involved micro scopes. I have very good ears and I know exactly what I'm listening for. Listening is how I set mine and I wouldn't change this angle for the best micro scope made. I have an angle that now sounds great across all record sizes and recordings.

You want it to sound perfect on the 180-200 gram guys Because on the 150s you'll be able to increase VTF .1-.2, which is nothing and get the same VTA you just had for the 200 gram.

Always reset your 0 tracking force after this and make sure your cart is still aligned.

I'm sorry for tbe long post, but typing out something that is actually simple to explain in person can come out very long. Good luck guys. I've worked on this for weeks strait, and eventually realized how easy it can be when trusting your ears. A variety of genres and record sizes are key.
 
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