Switch to tube amplification

Thanks robert_kc , I appreciate the knowledge and clarification you gave to this subject matter.

You’re welcome.

I’m not sure if my comments about surround-sound recordings are relevant for you. I believe that it’s important to build a hi-fi system that supports all of the available recorded music formats for the music that you like. If you listen mostly to “classic rock”, then the ability to play 1960s and ‘70s audio recordings (LPs and CDs) might be all you need. OTOH, it seems to me that hi-res (moreover, multi-channel) playback technology (SACD, Blu-ray, Pure Audio Blu-ray, Ultra HD Blu-ray) is more relevant to a 2018 classical music performance, vs. for a 40+ year-old pop or rock recording. However, that’s my perspective (and bias) as a classical music lover. :)

BTW, it can be quick and easy to alternate between solid-state and tube amps in the same system: One pair of speakers, two amplifiers I have tube and SS amps available in 3 of my 5 systems. It’s good to be able to select the best tool for the task at hand (e.g., watching a movie, or background listening to Tune-in internet radio, vs. serious listening to music).
 
Last edited:
@stoutblock, so what pre-amp do you you have/recommend looking into if you don’t mind my asking?

Well, like anything with audio it mostly depends on what you want to spend. I currently use a Modwright LS 36.5 DM and I cannot imagine a better performing preamplifier. Probably a more affordable solution is a audible illusions L3A. I used a Decware CSP3 for a while for good effect but it is a limited and simple preamp.
 
@playittwice, if possible, I welcome you to come over to the Iowa gathering this coming September and listen to several different types of amplification.

If you want to hear horns/Klipsch with tubes before then, you’re welcome anytime. Pm me if you like.
 
Last edited:
I've thought about buying a McIntosh MC275 but only because I love it's look, it's history and the fact that it's hand-made in a small town in upstate NY. Also, I like that it measures exceedingly well - THD levels well below the threshold of audibility, S/N ratios that rival Solid-State amps. ..In fact, I wholeheartedly believe most people in a blinded test would have difficulty distinguishing it from a modern, well-engineered S/S amp. Otherwise, if I want intentional distortion, I'll get some sort of an equalizer.
 
eq_smile.jpg
 
Playittwice,
I have KHorns (since 2006) and switched in the last year and a half from McIntosh SS to McIntosh current-issue MC275 VI tube amp and C22 III tube preamp. I don't know how much fiddling you've already done with your system over the years (and I've heard very good things about pairing vintage Sansui and KHorns), but, in my experience, practically every change (from xovers to patch and power cords to CDPs to cartridges to power strips to source material) has made a very noticeable difference in the sound of my system.

I cannot describe completely the change from SS to tube. It's sometimes subtle and sometimes NOT. But I'll say that horns do LOVE tubes; but they also love SS. They are just different relationships. The bass from my 275 is not quite as punchy and tight and slamming as it was with the SS amp (and I miss that a little sometimes), but with tubes, bass is much, much more three-dimensional and has more realism, naturalism, ease, and sustain. Bass is rounder, more complex, nuanced, and subtle. I can sometimes hear the pressure of the pad hitting the skin of the drum now--instead of the seductive, overwhelming SLAM. Also, regarding bass: I used to think it was all about SS tightness and slam vs. tube warmth. Though true, that is just the beginning; and it grossly oversimplifies things.

What these reissue McIntosh tube components did was to give me much more mid-bass (deep voices, woodwinds, standup bass, etc., all of which vibrate my old, wide-plank Jack pine floors). With tubes, I notice the differences not so much in the whomp-and-kick of a bass drum (which has a little less thumb-in-your-chest than with SS), but in EVERYTHING else. Brass is fuller and more fluid and has more dimension and leap and sustain; strings are less strident; voices are more present all around (Johnny Cash vibrates not just the floor, but my bones and chest, and his nasal sound, which used to distract me a little, is as enchanting as a lullaby); choral groups have more distinction among individual voices--as well as air, rise, space, spirit. With SS, voices used to lob dynamically out into the room and pierce like rockets (I loved it!). Now, tubed voices seem to lob out into the room and hang beautifully, to explode and dissolve like starbursts (and I also love it!).

The tube sound with my KHorns is certainly more "transparent" and layered and crystalline than the SS sound, too (transparent: a term I did not ever understand until I added the C22 to the MC275). One last remark: tubes have allowed me to hear all kinds of tiny things and qualities I never knew were there before: the vibrations of guitar strings, the extremely subtle shifts of a voice (tubed Billie Holiday is haunting to the point of tragic). All of that said: It could have more to do with my replacing vintage SS with new tubes. Also: you would certainly appreciate but you may not prefer the sound of tubes.

One difference I now notice is that, with so much more distinction and subtlety, some hard rock songs (reproduced on the KHorns at concert-level volume) have a little less SS harsh in-your-faceness with tubes--less attack. Remembering my younger days going to live rock concerts: my old SS separates and KHorns produced a beautiful distortion (go figure...) that was very close to the dynamic assault of a live ear-ringing performance. Whereas tubes make some of those same bands and songs almost too beautiful and melodic to believe. And I'm not sure which is truer to the original. Basically, tubes have their own voice, which emphasizes certain qualities over others. It comes down to taste. I'm very aware that with KHorns, different tube components sound different; just as different SS components do--even from the same company. I learned this auditioning different McIntosh components, new and vintage, SS and tube, with KHorns. Although I doubt that I'll ever go back to SS with Klipsch, my advice is: get both tubes AND SS.
 
Use both SS and tubes and like both. They all have advantages along with disadvantages. The biggest one being service. If you can do the work or have someone that can get a tube amp to play with. Something like an 6l6 or EL84 based one to start with.

I like tube tuners and amplifiers connected to a SS preamplifier. Mainly due to the phono input on the older tubes left me wanting along with lack of inputs.
That is just the best sounding system I've come up with so far.




Barney
 
If you want to keep the tube flavor and go SS you want vintage Mac 2505. A 502, or 754 with power guard to keep the same highs and midrange but tighten up the bass just a bit. Modern 275s are totally different from the early models. They are faster it seems to me, have lower distortion in most of the area from 100 to 15,000 hz and another 15 db of signal to noise which is very important with Klipsch Heritage speakers. I haven't heard the latest C-22 yet, but I would like to. It has features the other tube pre-amps don't have. I love all the manual controls, too. Thats why I keep my C-34. I'd love to have a C-40, but haven't the space in my antique cabinet.
 
Last edited:
If you want to keep the tube flavor and go SS you want vintage Mac 2505. A 502, or 754 with power guard to keep the same highs and midrange but tighten up the bass just a bit. Modern 275s are totally different from the early models. They are faster it seems to me, have lower distortion in most of the area from 100 to 15,000 hz and another 15 db of signal to noise which is very important with Klipsch Heritage speakers. I haven't heard the latest C-22 yet, but I would like to. It has features the other tube pre-amps don't have. I love all the manual controls, too. Thats why I keep my C-34. I'd love to have a C-34, but haven't the space in my antique cabinet.
That's gotta be infuriating to have a piece of good quality gear and not have the room for it. Replace the antigue cabinet with something that will allow you to use C-34 , just a suggestion!!
 
For me tubes were a "holy sheep dip" moment.

On a technical level, if you are sensitive to harmonics, tubes throw completely different harmonics than SS. For some, this is why they prefer the sound, especially when paired with certain speakers.

On an artistic level, I could not believe how improved the immediacy and presence of the sound was on tubes vs SS. It was a "wow" moment, both on CDs and on vinyl.

In my case, I had demoed a set of Forte on a Carver pre/power setup that made the speakers unlistenable. However, I had noticed that other "hot" sounding speakers in my listening room (solid, inert, non-echo-y) sounded warm and lush in this space, versus my living room. So I took a flyer and brought them home, and find they sound fantastic with the tubes in my space, with the presence and immediacy of live and acoustic recordings brought forward perfectly by the horns on the Fortes.

I do know some recommend using a tube pre with SS power, and I am the opposite of this - I use an SS pre with tube power. My understanding is the magic of tubes comes from how they interact with the speakers and their variable load, as compared to transistors. From experience (using my Jolida) as both pre and power, I would agree with this wholeheartedly - the magic is there when used as a power amp.

Not to say that I eschew SS - good quality (important) SS is great in certain applications, such as in our living room where lots of TV is watched. However, for critical music listening, it's tubes for me.

As a side note to this, one of the enjoyable parts of having tubes is that changing tubes in the signal chain can also change the signature of the amp. In my case, switching to EH KT88 output tubes made a world of difference from the more forward TS 6550 output tubes.
 
Use both SS and tubes and like both.

I am only running KG4's but every time I do this my GF who thinks the speaker on her phone is good enough notices the change. GF "Did you take the tubies out again", Me "yes" , GF "well can you put them back? "

:rockon:
 
Tubes all the way with good Klipsch speakers. I noticed you have a Sansui Seven in your signature, that actually makes a fine preamp as I've tried it and you'll have all the features: Phono, Tape, Tuner, Aux, etc... If you want to try tubes without breaking the bank I would suggest a Latino ST70 amplifier paired with your Seven as preamp. tubesforhifi.com.

Uses el34 power tubes to give about 40 wpc and you can start with some JJ el34's that run about 15-20 bux apiece (4 needed plus 3 driver board tubes).

I currently use a recapped Sansui AU-717 as preamp into a rebuilt Dynaco ST70 and every time I go back to one of my transistor amps I can't wait to go back to my tube amp. I have 1995 Klipsch Quartets, the sound is full top to bottom with as much volume as I like.

Good luck and let us know where you start/end.
 
A 30 to 40 watt tube amp is all you’ll need for efficient Klipcsh speakers, assuming your listening room isn’t huge. I use an 8 watt single ended 300B with my kg 4.2’s and Forte’s. The sound is heavenly. I’ll also switch it out for 30 – 35 watt amps or tube receivers. There isn’t much of a perceived volume difference with my listening between the power range of my different amps and I do listen to fairly loud music. I've been tempted to purchase a Latino ST70 kit.
 
Thanks to all. I am getting some very positive responses. I’m just going to have to experience that sound for myself I guess. Just have to find a good starting point.
 
I love tubes as well. SS can be great of course, but I can't go back. I'm a sucker for Nostalgia...and what my parents used. Having the ability to adjust the sounds character by tube rolling is amazingly joyful and very rewarding. I bought a bunch of good priced tubes from reputable dealers on Ebay trying to identify the flavor I was looking for. Then I went to upscale and spent $$ on quality QC'd tubes after knowing the type I was certain about. Then I sold the leftover tubes on Ebay and actually made a little money on the side.

You will be surprised at how much power 30WPC can bring to relatively efficient speakers. I recommend seeing if you can test

The ST70 or ST120 are great options...or so I have been told....but are limited to KT88 I recall. Upscale Audio has a 35WPC...ultralinear mode.... PrimaLuna Dialogue Four which can take EL84, KT88, and KT120 tubes. That would be heavenly if it could provide you with enough power. For $900 on sale (retails for around $1400). That tube amp is freaking amazing and looks every bit its worth. It would double up as art in your living room.
 
I've used tubes since I was a kid except for about 8 years in the Navy, and until my kids were 10-12 (about 20 years). During that time I had a PIONEER SX-434 and pro-4A headphones. Once the youngest was 10, out came the tubes and I've been running FISHER stuff since then.(He's now 32) I still have the 434, a sansui 2000, 2000a, 2000x, Pioneer Sx-737, 939, 790. and some FISHER SS gear from the 60's. But the FISHER X-101-B, 800c, and 400 get the most use of anything. The Solid State stuff stays in the bedroom on KG-2's, and the main system is a X-101-B, KM-60, Dual 1249 or Garrard Zero 100, pushing Heresy I's in black. The Sansui's sound closest to tubes than the FISHER stuff, and I think it's due to cap coupling vs. direct coupled. The youngest receiver I have is the SX-790 and it's too flat,sterile, and overly bright in the mid and hi ranges, even on a pair of klh 17's. Then there are the consoles, of which 2 get the most play. These are both Mono units, run Jensen 15" Coax or 15" jensen with a mid and a tweeter. Mainly for background stuff in the house. I do dx the am sections on the 51 Coronet occassionally. But the main systen with the Heresy's is the most fun I've had in a long time with my clothes on. I just ordered the crossover kit from Bob Crites and the mid horn gaskets. We'll see how this improves them. But right now they are an order of magnitude better than my OLA's, KLH-17's, and the KANAZAWA's with the Bozaks in them.

They both have their good and bad sides. Balance them against each other. But for me I'll have tubes and run them more than my SS stuff. Plus my 5 year old Grandson loves the tube glow and the sound, so I let him experiment with the tone controls, balance and the tuner.
 
I suppose I could chime in...I experienced your precise query. My first good amp was a Sansui 2000a followed by a Luxman R1050. I was running Polk monitor 10s and ADS L520s. Needless to say, these were and are great. Along the way, a friend who sells gear showed me his Chorus11s...and pumped 'Aja' through them. I think he was pushing them w a Conrad Johnson SS pre-amp. I was floored by their attack/immediacy...and set out to find my own set of horns (his Chorus 11s I couldn't afford). Eventually I found my beloved Forte iis...but was fascinated w tube amplification and read how well Klipsch n tubes pair. Specifically making them less fatiguing. They are hyper-articulate, imo. Down the road I lucked up on a great deal on a Dynaco ST-70 clone...around 30 wpc. Biased in some Genelex Gold Lion KT-77s, burned em in...and marvel daily how magical this set-up is. Currently saving/liquidating for an 8 wpc Coincident Dynamo mkii SEP. Plenty of tube power for high-efficiency Klipsch horns...if I have to sell the Sansui and/or the Luxman, which are GREAT SS receivers..I will. Your mileage may vary.
 
I suppose I could chime in...I experienced your precise query. My first good amp was a Sansui 2000a followed by a Luxman R1050. I was running Polk monitor 10s and ADS L520s. Needless to say, these were and are great. Along the way, a friend who sells gear showed me his Chorus11s...and pumped 'Aja' through them. I think he was pushing them w a Conrad Johnson SS pre-amp. I was floored by their attack/immediacy...and set out to find my own set of horns (his Chorus 11s I couldn't afford). Eventually I found my beloved Forte iis...but was fascinated w tube amplification and read how well Klipsch n tubes pair. Specifically making them less fatiguing. They are hyper-articulate, imo. Down the road I lucked up on a great deal on a Dynaco ST-70 clone...around 30 wpc. Biased in some Genelex Gold Lion KT-77s, burned em in...and marvel daily how magical this set-up is. Currently saving/liquidating for an 8 wpc Coincident Dynamo mkii SEP. Plenty of tube power for high-efficiency Klipsch horns...if I have to sell the Sansui and/or the Luxman, which are GREAT SS receivers..I will. Your mileage may vary.


What are you using for a pre-amp?
If I go this route what do you recommend?

Thanks
 
What are you using for a pre-amp?
If I go this route what do you recommend?

Thanks
. I play vinyl exclusively so I use a Bellari VP130 Phono Pre. I upgraded the stock tube to a sweet NOS Phillips miniwatt. I did purchase an upgraded power supply...there was concern over hum w the stock wall wart. Keep in mind, tubes do hum a little and when you have high-efficiency speakers it's noticeable when volume is off.
 
Back
Top Bottom