Teach me about the pros/cons of a dedicated Preamp and power amp over an integrated

[z-adamson]

In my opinion separate amp and pre are easier to recap, restore.

Less stuff crammed into one chassis.

If you like to restore your equipment yourself, this can be a big plus.

 

[lico]

Thinking about using my integrated amp as a preamp and trying a dedicated power amp to see if I can give my speakers a little more power, but having never tried this in a hi-fi system I thought I'd ask the hive their opinions on such things.

Lots of answers for simple a question like yours. Yes - you can get more power that way. Go for it and have fun. That's why some integrated amps have pre-out main-in jacks on them

 

[halkaloogie]

I own several Carver, JBL/Urei, Adcom, and Soundcraftsmen amplifiers. What I use in my main system has been since 1970, and is today, Crown. Currently bi-amping with a PS-200 and PS-400. These are still available in the $200 to $400 range and generally appear to be more dependable than anything else in that power-level or at three-times the price range. Even the PS-200 will hit the power level you desire and can often cost less than $200 in good shape.

I’ve used crown amps in live music situations in my youth and remember them being all over the place are they really all that good for hifi? I always associate them with PA gear.

 

[motorstereo]

It gets worse. Some equipment actually have separate power supplies in separate boxes, like my Bryston preamp.

Or it can be better; I haven't looked at or considered another pre since landing my 2 piece Mcintosh C100 preamp a year ago. Until then I hosted a preamp merry go round for several years which can get very expensive.

 

[E-Stat]

I’ve used crown amps in live music situations in my youth and remember them being all over the place are they really all that good for hifi? I always associate them with PA gear.

Better than in the past. I owned an XLS1500 for the garage system for a while. Smooth, fatigue-free sound (unlike 70s models I heard and owned), but top octave missing in action. Uppermost harmonics just seem to slam into a wall with no sustain.

I replaced it with an Ncore switcher with better top end response.

 

[whoaru99]

I don't get the need for a "matched set". Wouldn't just about any good low distortion power amp compliment a nice preamp?

You gotta be real careful with terms.

Some will construe matched explicitly to mean same brand, maybe even same pieces shown together in marketing literature.

Others will read that as simply working well together, or some other aspect they consider to mean "matched".

 

[Hyfi]

I read Matched Set to be what I had as my first real system. Hafler 945 Pre-Tuner and Matching 9130 or 9180 Amp. Designed and marketed as a set.

 

[Alobar]

I think in this case the "matched set" the OP was referring to was about the advantages of an integrated being matched, or at least that was what was being quoted as.

 

[fredgarvin]

I'm very much aware price doesn't equal anything, and my system is very much put together with that idea.

You seem to have been around the block with this kind of thing and have been helpful voice with my questions, any recommendations for an amp around 100 watts per channel?

The DQ-16 was independently measured at 87 db sensitivity vs Dahlquists claimed 89db. From my own experience with speakers of similar sensitivity, moving up from 100wpc to an amp with 200wpc and high current definitely improved their performance.

 

[a_retent]

You gotta be real careful with terms.

Some will construe matched explicitly to mean same brand, maybe even same pieces shown together in marketing literature.

Others will read that as simply working well together, or some other aspect they consider to mean "matched".

I read Matched Set to be what I had as my first real system. Hafler 945 Pre-Tuner and Matching 9130 or 9180 Amp. Designed and marketed as a set.

Very good point you've brought up here.
Terminology does play an important role in this hobby. I've seen this term used in both applications, here and on other forums. I can understand how the term "matched set" and "matching set" could be easily interchanged, especially by someone new to this hobby of ours. Typically I can figure out the application of the term by the full context of a post or listening to what someone is describing. But if I where to only hear or see:

What are your thoughts on a matched set of amplifiers?

I would have to ask for clarification. I understand the use of the term "matched set" to describe a pair of amps that are sonically matched to each other as a pair or sonically matched to the pre-amp, 'synergy' for lack of another description. My identification to "matching set" would describe all units to be of the same manufacturer/model line.

In two-way radio communications the term "matched antenna" refers to the result of adjusting the standing wave ratio (SWR) of the antenna to the output of the transmitter (synergy if you will), it doesn't refer to what type/brand/make or model the antenna or radio is. However, the process of adjusting the antenna is referred to as "matching".

After 40 years of this hobby I get it. But to the new recruit I can certainly see the confusion and I try to exercise some patience, sometimes proving to be quite tough. I remember how little I knew about this hobby back in 1972 when I started, and how little I know yet to this day, but it's been a fun ride so far.

 

[BMWCCA]

I’ve used crown amps in live music situations in my youth and remember them being all over the place are they really all that good for hifi? I always associate them with PA gear.

I'm not using the less-expensive (okay, cheap) Crown amps designed for DJs or SR subs. I've said this before but when I went to my local hi-fi store 45-years ago looking to replace my not-very-dependable Fisher SA1000 amp, they suggested the Crown D-series and gave me three different models to take home to try. And they were a McIntosh dealer, among others. I chose the middle D150 and still have it today. I remember taking it along with my C20 to the Mac Clinics and watching the looks on the faces of the Mac engineers when their proof-of-performance charts showed the consistent performance of the Crowns surpassing their power ratings while the distortion curve hugged the X-axis. Back then Crowns were sold as hi-fi gear by hi-fi stores.

The D-series and PS-series have no fans, are quite heavy, aren't designed to fill a disco, but were a staple of many fine studios over the past 50-years. For what they sell for now, you just can't go wrong even if you try one and don't like it. Just running an inventory from my head, I must have nine D-series amps from D45, D75A, D150, D150A-II, to DC300A-II, and maybe eight PS-200s and PS-400s, in addition to one Studio Reference-II. For those who think they're just cheap high-powered disco amps like some of their current line, the D75A was still available new just a few years ago and the list price was just shy of $1,200. Yes, Crown certainly has sound-reinforcement covered today but the D and PS-series were really quite different animals.

 

[halkaloogie]

the D and PS-series were really quite different animals.

Which D or PS model would you recommend?

 

[Splatter Pak]

I haven't read the entire thread, but DSP integrated amps should be considered. A preamp section must be really good to even do the DSP thing, or so I reasoned. A fellow left me with an NAD preamp, and I compared it with the preamp section of my Yamaha DSP-A2070, and the Yamaha ate the NAD for lunch. I use it now for biamping, the 2070's pre feeding both the 2070's power amp section (in two-channel) and a Denon power amp. It is quite a step up over using just the 2070.

 

[BMWCCA]

Which D or PS model would you recommend?

I started with the D-series and used them for over 30-years. I've run nearly all the systems I have off the PS-series for about six-years. The PS is really an update of the D-series though the D-series actually lived beyond the run of the PS because the D-series were remained priced below the PS. The PS-200 is roughly 100-WPC and the PS-400 is roughly 200-WPC at 8-ohms. Take your pick. The larger is one-rack-space taller then the smaller. If you have the choice, the PS without the front plate over the "Signal Presence" lamps is the later version though specs are the same. You'll see some with rack handles and some without. Most of the later versions were without, though you can convert one to the other if you can find the parts. PS-series added turn-on delay, Mod-X XLR adapter, and other improvements over the D-series. If you go with the D-series, look for the later (and last) Series-II such as D150A-II or DC300A-II which are roughly equivalent to the PS-200 and PS-400, respectively, in output. The consumer versions of the PS-series are called Power Line which have more LEDs and RCA inputs instead of 1/4-inch and cost a bit more for no real good reason. I also have a Power LIne Three.

 

[RGA]

When you talk integrated amps versus separates - don't. Just don't. When it comes to sound quality you can really only discuss that within the same company. Yes separates have advantages - options, independant power supplies and IMO the best separates sound better - but there are some very very serious integrated amplifiers that on sound quality will tear apart some pricey separates - BUT it depends on whether you are buying the amplifiers for high power or for sound quality. For instance the AN Ongaku is one of the best sounding integrated amplifiers on the planet. At $100k it should be and it's a whole 18 watts per channel. Obviously people who buy these are people with enough money and room to buy separates.
And they could buy $100k worth of separates they could buy say top Krell 1000 watt poer amps at $70k and a $30k preamp. These are people who are choosing to buy sound quality not power output and boat anchors for their living room.

The amp has been selling for 29 years now too so it's not smoke and mirrors.

When one compares separates to integrated what are they comparing - two different brands? Well that is comparing two different manufacturer decisions on voicing. I can say that with my AN OTO integrated it is unusual in that it is essentially the AN M1 Preamp and P1SE Power amp both placed into one box sharing one power supply.

AN M-One preamp & P1SE power amp does sound better than the OTO and this can be directly compared even though the same parts are used throughout - the mere separation of the chassis and independent power supplies make the difference. And this was true when I added a Bryston Power amp to my Pioneer Elite VSX 95 receiver and to my Arcam Delta 290 integrated. Even though the Elite had more two channel power than the Bryston - the Bryston had a very low noise floor. So separating the units sounded much better. That said the Sugden A21a and the Nelson Pass First Watt amps at around 15-25 watts as integrateds sounded better to me and cost less.

But at the time I was running 95dB sensitive horn speakers that sat mostly 10ohms so very easy to drive. This allows people to buy amps based on sound "Quality" over sound "quantity" and IMO and IME high power SS is mostly poor sounding regardless how much you pay. High negative feedback, high damping factor lead to upgradeitus.

The other thing to note is that a very good integrated can allow the manufacturer to spend money on a really high quality transformer (one) and Caps, resistors, boards and shielding etc. If he has to spread that oout over two units the manufacturer's costs go up. Needs more parts and extra chassis, another transformer etc. Plus integrates have shorter signal paths.

So it depends. I recently bought my third preamp in the Audio Note M3 Mkiii Phono balanced preamp and I was pretty much stunned right out of the gate at the phono stage improvement and the level of dynamics and lack of noise. It's a very pricey preamp at $11,000 US which is more than I spent on my last car. But with this preamp and the Audio Note Empress Silver Signature Monoblocks I plan to buy after my next contract bonus the combination of separates is less money that the AN Jinro ($27,000) integrated and I feel the separates sound a fair bit better.

I think putting the bulk of the money on the preamp is the key - I remember hearing the ARC Reference 3 with some big Brystons and it sounded pretty excellent - the Bryston preamp was pretty horrible in comparison. Simply by using the superior Ref3 - it changed the sound considerably. And the ARC 3 also cleaned up some other SS systems from Rotel and Krell.

The one thing I would suggest - buy second hand - amps are pretty safe choices - they last 20 years usually trouble free. And they depreciate a lot. So you should be able to pick up quite a good preamp and/or power amp for peanuts - pay a few hundred to replace the caps and have it cleaned up and you could get another 20 years out of them. I almost bought an ARC SP9 preamp with that intent. $400 or so at my dealer in Canada. But it was no Ref 3 unfortunately. The Sugden integrated's preamp sounded much much better for less. So I ended up walking out with that.

 

[BMWCCA]

When you talk integrated amps versus separates - don't. Just don't. When it comes to sound quality you can really only discuss that within the same company. Yes separates have advantages - options, independant power supplies and IMO the best separates sound better - but there are some very very serious integrated amplifiers that on sound quality will tear apart some pricey separates - BUT it depends on whether you are buying the amplifiers for high power or for sound quality. For instance the AN Ongaku is one of the best sounding integrated amplifiers on the planet. At $100k it should be and it's a whole 18 watts per channel. Obviously people who buy these are people with enough money and room to buy separates.
And they could buy $100k worth of separates they could buy say top Krell 1000 watt poer amps at $70k and a $30k preamp. These are people who are choosing to buy sound quality not power output and boat anchors for their living room.

Now you're getting theoretical and using extreme behavior as an example. That's not really the question here. Go back to the first post:

Thinking about using my integrated amp as a preamp and trying a dedicated power amp to see if I can give my speakers a little more power

Anyone spending $100k on an integrated amplifier is not a good example of anything other than excessive greed and a need for attention. Which makes me wonder what kind of hi-fi they have a Mar a Lago?

 

[E-Stat]

Which D or PS model would you recommend?

Avoid the first generation D150 or DC300a as they are decidedly hard sounding at the top. I used a D150 for a while driving Advents. The dealer suggested I purchase an H-K Citation 12 instead, but I was lured by the optional rack "ears" and added 4 ohm power as a teenager.

I'll have to say the Crown was tough. My system was used for the 1974 Miss RHS pageant at the high school. I had to put the gear under a covered table and inadvertently shorted the outputs with a screwdriver while powered up. I disconnect power, yanked the slightly welded to the post screwdriver free and powered it back up. No problemo!

Two years later, I replaced it with a decidedly more transparent Audire amplifier driving Magneplanars.

 

[halkaloogie]

Two years later, I replaced it with a decidedly more transparent Audire amplifier driving Magneplanars.

I'm in no rush to buy anything, and am just getting an idea of what I should be looking for. Do you have any recommendations for something with up to maybe 200 wpc in the used realm of maybe $500 or less?

 

[halkaloogie]

Which makes me wonder what kind of hi-fi they have a Mar a Lago?

Damn it, now I want to know too

 

[halkaloogie]

I started with the D-series and used them for over 30-years. I've run nearly all the systems I have off the PS-series for about six-years. The PS is really an update of the D-series though the D-series actually lived beyond the run of the PS because the D-series were remained priced below the PS. The PS-200 is roughly 100-WPC and the PS-400 is roughly 200-WPC at 8-ohms. Take your pick. The larger is one-rack-space taller then the smaller. If you have the choice, the PS without the front plate over the "Signal Presence" lamps is the later version though specs are the same. You'll see some with rack handles and some without. Most of the later versions were without, though you can convert one to the other if you can find the parts. PS-series added turn-on delay, Mod-X XLR adapter, and other improvements over the D-series. If you go with the D-series, look for the later (and last) Series-II such as D150A-II or DC300A-II which are roughly equivalent to the PS-200 and PS-400, respectively, in output. The consumer versions of the PS-series are called Power Line which have more LEDs and RCA inputs instead of 1/4-inch and cost a bit more for no real good reason. I also have a Power LIne Three.

I'm drawn to the PS-200 visually because I think it would look sharp next to my Sansui both black with silver knobs. That's a stupid reason to buy gear but it was the first thing I thought when I saw what they looked like.