Technics SL-1200G Speed and Wow and Flutter Issues?

Discussion in 'Turntables' started by Decibel_116, Dec 4, 2018.

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  1. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    Make sure you sit perfectly still while recording the tone. Footsteps or tiny movements show up in the plot or W&F.

    Don't even breathe- kidding :)
     
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  2. Decibel_116

    Decibel_116 AK Subscriber

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    :thumbsup:
     
  3. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    Based on the file you emailed me, the results are the following:

    DIN based numbers as the centre frequency was 3.15KHz.

    There's a cyclic (once per revolution) 'kick' from essentially the correct speed to approx 0.3% fast. It's not typical of an off centre record, although that can compound or reduce the apparent rate of the 'kick'.

    As such, Wow is a very high 0.32% peak.
    Flutter alone is relatively low at 0.03% to 0.07% with an average of 0.04%
    WTD W&F (weighted wow and flutter) 0.06% to 0.15% with an average of 0.1%.

    Technics specify JIS standards, which are more stringent with Wow, and its contribution to to the WTD W&F number. DIN weighting of W&F places less emphasis on the wow component, so the WTD average number above doesn't seem too bad. I would expect these numbers when converted to (WRMS) JIS to be in excess of the Technics specification of WTD W&F by a factor of ten. (If you have a 3KHz track, I can do a JIS test to be sure)

    To rule out a compounding of turntable+record wow, try a few (3) more recordings of the same track, each time rotating the record approx 1/3 on the platter. Alternatively, make another recording on another turntable you own and I can see if a similar pattern is present. (that way we can see if it's a record artifact)

    The big unknown is the quality of your test record, but based in the initial test, I would definitely be investigating further.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
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  4. Decibel_116

    Decibel_116 AK Subscriber

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    It's a new test record. It's not perfect, but the results of your analysis mirror my own with simple cell phone apps and my own hearing. I have been cursed with perfect pitch so it was obvious from the very first record I played that there was an issue. Thanks for your assistance.
     
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  5. Decibel_116

    Decibel_116 AK Subscriber

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    John,

    I sent you a file I recorded with the same record on my 1210M5G for a comparison. It measures as within spec with my cell phone app.
     
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  6. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    I'll do it this afternoon when I get back from the beach. :)
     
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  7. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    The results are as follows. DIN 3.15KHz:

    Speed: excellent, +/- 0.1% or less, barely any fluctuation around zero on drift meter.

    Wow: 0.12% to 0.2%, average 0.15%
    Flutter: 0.024% to 0.044%, average 0.04%

    (There was a few peaks of 0.067% later in the track, but I reckon that's movement in the house/floor so I ignored them)

    WTD W&F 0.06% to 0.1%, average 0.08%

    So, the SL1210Mk5G is giving considerably better numbers on the wow. Flutter is essentially the same average, but more tightly controlled on the mk5G.

    Again, the limiting factor is likely the record, but the comparison is interesting to say the least.

    I'll look at the other two files from the GAE for you too.
     
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  8. restorer-john

    restorer-john Addicted Member

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    OK, here you go. Bear in mind rotating the record on the platter shows up eccentricity in the vinyl so the numbers should be all a little bit different, wow is affected most, flutter not so much.

    GAE file 2:

    Drift +/-0.2-0.3%

    Wow 0.2% to 0.4% average 0.3%
    Flutter 0.028% to 0.064% average 0.044%
    WTD W&F 0.07% to 0.15% average 0.12%

    GAE file 3:

    Drift +/-0.2-0.3%

    Wow 0.18% to 0.32% average 0.26%
    Flutter 0.03% to 0.06% average 0.036%
    WTD W&F 0.07% to 0.17% average 0.1%

    So what we can say with reasonable confidence is there is a issue with the the wow number for the GAE. The residual wow in the record is clearly present, but the three sample recordings of the GAE are all consistent and the mk5G is clearly better in the wow number. The GAE also has some of what appear to be random spikes not present in the mk5G. They could be you moving around, but I don't think so.
     
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2018
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  9. Decibel_116

    Decibel_116 AK Subscriber

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    Thanks for analyzing the test tracks. I have tried to engage Technics the second time via email. We will see what happens. I have another copy of the test record coming as well. Maybe it will be slightly better.
     
  10. Decibel_116

    Decibel_116 AK Subscriber

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    An update for those interested - I sent Technics an email with the relevant facts and they replied that the SL-1200G has better performance than the SL-1200mkII series. The warranty is not transferrable and is only valid to the original purchaser. They sent me the contact information for two authorized service centers near me, one of which does not service audio equipment (only television sets). So, I think Technics wants nothing to do with this issue and does not want to support me. Although, they don't mind sending their service center a customer.

    So, I have filed a case with PayPal for resolution. What I expect to happen is -

    1. I will return the turntable to the original purchaser for a refund.

    2. He will get it fixed under warranty.

    3. He can sell it again.

    It's really the same cost to Technics, but I suppose they want to make this as difficult as possible.

    Cheers
     
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  11. 4-2-7

    4-2-7 Smart Ass Sponsor Subscriber

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    That’s shitty Technics should stand by their product thats not even a year old.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2019
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  12. ODS123

    ODS123 Well-Known Member

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    That stinks. ..Has the seller (orig. owner) balked at taking it back and refunding $$ ??
     
  13. Decibel_116

    Decibel_116 AK Subscriber

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    Yes it does indeed! The seller has not balked - at least not yet. I just opened the case recently. I have been attempting to resolve this with Technics because I was led to believe the warranty is transferable. I have kept him informed on my efforts to resolve this with Technics.
     
  14. ODS123

    ODS123 Well-Known Member

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    Transferable would be nice, but even if not there's no reason for Technics to not have an adequate service network. Good luck. ..Be persistent. :)
     
  15. Decibel_116

    Decibel_116 AK Subscriber

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    You can only imagine how utterly disappointing this is to me. I was very excited to own one of the limited edition models. It would have been nice to see Technics really get behind this to get it resolved quickly and have a continued satisfied customer as I have been with other Technics products. However, it's been said before that Panasonic is a huge company. I'm sure I am of little concern to them and probably don't even register on their priorities of concern. Sad to see really, because I was thinking of buying either another SL-1200G or the SL-1000R to replace my older SL-1000mkII.
     
  16. Mister Pig

    Mister Pig Pigamus Maximus Subscriber

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    This is pretty standard policy. Typically warranties are only good for the original purchaser. Rare are the transferrable warranty. There is nothing underhanded here. This is a risk of buying used goods. Fortunately Paypal has an avenue of recourse for you.

    Cheers
    Mister Pig
     

     

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  17. M Chavez

    M Chavez Active Member

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    All warranty repairs are at the sole discretion of Panasonic and there is no mention of transferability - YEA or NAY, so that's good
    With a turntable from an overseas maker I'd be surprised if there was due to the nature of the beast though, but they don't print it so you may be good (legally)
    I have read the warranty carefully and the dealer does NOT have the authority to transfer or even tell you that a warranty transfer is possible - see above
    These are the times when dealing directly with an established dealer (who has some leverage and latitude with bending the 'rules' and making things happen, face to face, pays off and makes a good argument for brick and mortar but I digress and is beside the point at hand
    On the positive side there is NO mention of the dreaded "original purchaser" limitations but you do need that receipt with a date and purchase amount - that they make clear
    The warranty also suggests that if you cannot obtain satisfactory results to write them at the address provided
    That's what I'd do and quit wasting your time with flaky dealers (that will often overstep with words just to get you out of their hair, regardless of brand)
    Here's a copy of the manual (and warranty) if you don't already have it
    Good luck
    https://www.technics.com/support/downloads/data/operating-instructions/SL-1200G_PPS_TQBM0005.pdf
    I also think that if the seller was on the up and up and a square deal kind of a guy he'd get his dealer to resolve this for you - but one way or the other you're probably going to have to be shipping this table to some place anyway - so at this juncture I'd just deal with Panasonic from this point forward and save what would most likely be a redundant mailing
    The seller should also/also have, provided you with the receipt - why would/should you have to chase it down? That's the most concerning part of this growing story

    Afterthought:
    Did you try re-seating the platter as I suggested? Clean the platter bore and spindle with an optical grade cloth dampened with isopropyl alcohol, and or, a shed free electrical paper wipe the same, apply a THIN film of oil to the spindle with clean fingers and try that
    I'm repeating myself now but I have cured this very same issue by doing said same
     
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2019
  18. M Chavez

    M Chavez Active Member

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    Follow the instructions given by Panasonic in their warranty and quit wasting your time with flakes
     
  19. M Chavez

    M Chavez Active Member

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    Not helpful as well as the fact that every member of AudioKarma who has had the pleasure of encountering any of your posts on the brand and the model is well aware of your disdain for them
    Why not try just being quiet on the matter for a refreshing change - be a lot more helpful and take away a little bit of the stress in an already stressful situation for the OP
     
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  20. M Chavez

    M Chavez Active Member

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    Don't be so pessimistic or lose faith - yes they are a behemoth so you know it will take a little time to get through - talk directly with them (write) and tell them all of what you've said in this thread, you may be pleasantly surprised
     
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