The Downward Spiral - AR XA Restoration Begins.

Ok,

STILL waiting on tone arm wire and solder.

Here is the order of the tone arm wires as they solder into the posts under the base.

From the top -

Post 1 - Ground (silver braid)
Post 2 - Copper (no color, "white" or "nuetral" maybe?)
Post 3 - Red
Post 4 - Blue
Post 5 - Green

Now, the other side turns into the RCA cords, I am still fuzzy of their arrangement - i.e. right, left, ground, ect.

In the meantime, I sanded, stained, and oiled the walnut veneer base and brass AR badge. Here are some before and after pics -

Base before-

ARTurntable006.jpg


Base after -

ARRe-Finish.jpg


Badge before -

ARTurntable007.jpg


Badge after -

ARBadgeRe-Finish.jpg


I used #0000 ultra fine steel wool on the base and badge. I then applied some Minwax "Special Walnut" stain. After that I applied a coat of three parts boiled linseed oil and one part pure gum turpentine, let stand for 15 min., then wiped down. Looks nice.

I have decided to re-paint the metal top. The blue is just too bright for me. I want more of a dark, navy color. If I can't find what I am looking for, I am going to strip it back down, re-prime, and paint it a hammered black finish.

I am also picking up an old 2 motor XA parts unit with the SOLID walnut base on saturday if everything goes well.

Again, if there is anyone out there with a diagram of the tone arm all the way down to the RCA wires it would be greatly appreciated!

Many thanks to divotdog, he has been of more help to me than I ever could have asked for!

:smoke: herbs
 
It looks great :thmbsp: outstanding job :yes: that is going to be a worthwhile TT when you are done!
 
This is great! I just got home with an AR XA for $25 and am running across some of the same issues listed here. Thanks for the great info.

My XA is from 1968 and is in fairly good shape cosmetically (except that it doesn't yet make music). It spins (although I hear some noise) and I hear a hum when amp set to phono. I've just gotten my first turntables and know nothing yet.

I'll need to digest this thread a bit longer before I can start troubleshooting my table. I guess I should also look at the sticky threads.
 
It was 15 degrees here this AM, no golf course working today for me. Instead, I will post new AR "progress".

I drove my 87 Jeep Grand Wagoneer down to Atlanta last weekend to meet w/fellow AK member johncan. He had an early, two motor AR XA which I was going to snag for a parts unit. I say Atlanta, but it was really Lilburn. For a hick like me, anything past where 985 south merges w/I85 is considered "Atlanta".

After I made my way through the near NASCAR traffic (fighting panic attacks the entire way) to the lilburn exit, I drove a way til I reached the quaint, suburban lair of the johncan. I had met him once before @ the AK southern fest, but this was the first time I had been to his residence.

He showed me downstairs to his listening room. He had quite the selection of home audio gear. I could tell his preference for gear was a little more sophisticated and refined than mine. The majority of my gear is Pioneer, Kenwood, Marantz, Yamaha, JBL, ect... johncan seemed to have more of a preference toward brands like McIntosh, Bozak, Klipsch, Nakamichi, NAD, AR, and so forth. He also had some cool turntables with German names that I have never heard of before. His main system was tube gear pushing Klipsch Cornwalls. This was one of the few times I have actualy heard tube gear and I was really impressed. I now have something else to contemplate dumping my hard earned money into. I have also found myself doing searches for Klipsch Hereseys and Cornwalls. Been thinking really hard about some New Large Advents and AR 3a's as well... Where does a hobby end and an obsession begin? I really need to stop and repair what I have presently!!!

Anyhow, back to the ARXA. It was a fully functional early AR XA with no cart and two motors. I have heard that these usually need a push to get them going (like johncans 2 motor model), but this one started up fine and the speed was dead on. Another drawback to these tables is the pulley only supplies a 33 rpm speed, no 45 rpm. The only thing I could tell wrong was the corner of the base was separating, and it had a non-original ARinc speaker badge glued to the front. The platter also had some sticky stuff on it where someone tried to glue a mat down on it.

On the drive home, an idea came to me. Why don't I just unhook where the tone arm solders in to the RCA outputs underneath the base of the 2 motor model, unscrew the motors from the top, then lift the entitre aluminum plinth with the tone arm still attached to the outputs underneath and place it on my one motor base. After that I would just screw the plinth into the 1 motor base, re-staple the RCA outputs, and attach the motor! What a great idea!!!

Well, turned out to be a not so great idea.

You can't just switch out plinths for these two different types of the same model. The one Haydon motor won't fit into the older 2 motor model top. You could drill the holes in the aluminum to make it fit, but they would have to be threaded. It felt like it would have to be forced into position as well. Really did not fit the hole of the 2 motor model top.

Also, there are metal brackets on the inside of the base. A screw goes through them and screws into the plinth to hold it flush with the base. The 1 & 2 motor models brackets are glued in different places. One model takes a short screw, the other a long one. (sexual innuendo of your choice here)

To top it all off, after learning the previously stated facts, I broke a tone arm wire at the solder joint on the RCA output. So, now this turn table will need new tone arm wiring as well.

I feel like such an a$$. All I had to do was put a stylus in the 2 motor model, glue the corner and that was it. I could be listening to some vinyl right now on an AR if I hadn't been so overzealous and eager to do stuff I am not really qualified to do.

On the bright side, The 2 motor model came with the original ball bearing underneath the tone arm spindle. The bearing I posted pics of earlier in this thread is the WRONG SIZE. Now I have something to go by when I go and purchase a new bearing for the 1 motor model.

The 2 motor model also does not have any of the derylin (plastic) parts that were so troublesome on the VERY early models. The plastic was located in the tone arm pivot and the platter well. This model has NO PLASTIC and two motors that run well.

I also LOCATED THE NYLON DISC THRUST BEARING for the 1 motor model that I thought I had lost earlier!!! It was in the bottom of the tone arm well the entire time. I put the one that popped out on top of it, and when I removed it for a cleaning the oil down there caused the two flat bearings to stick together. So now that is one less replacement I have to forge.

I also glued the corner of the 2 motor walnut base. This one is solid walnut so I can sand it all I want. I am going to clean up the badge as well.

So now I have to:

1. Get proper size tone arm spindle bearing for 1 motor AR
2. Re-finish base/badge of 2 motor AR
3. Re-paint plinth of 2 motor AR
4. Find some #10 oil for tone arm and platter wells
5. Clean gunk off platter of 2 motor AR
5. Order new belts for BOTH models (can you still buy the 2 motor belts?)
6. Disable tone arm damping feature and do audio basic mods on both AR TT tone arms
7. Clean out rotted black foam from platter well and tone arm pivot bearing
8. Order more tone arm wire from wellborelabs
9. Find suitable platter mat material
10. Re-paint plinth (again) 1 motor AR
11. Round up all the parts for both and......

Take them both down to member Gordon Waters at his workplace - AK sponsor Audio Atlanta - and have him re-assemble and tweak them out there. I am too tired to mess with them anymore. I have dug a hole far too deep now, and am just as happy to pay my way out of it.

All I will really need done by him is:

1. Solder tone arm wires
2. Replace old RCA jacks w/outputs and ground terminal on back of the base
3. Install cartridges, check stylus pressure and overhang

After that, I should be ready to rock out. I already have the cartridges - an ADC 441LM and a Shure Premier M75 both w/NOS Phansteil stylii.

I'll keep you all posted on how it is going... Wish me luck...:nutz:
 
Sorry to say that there won't be any updates... herbman1975 has been banned.

Not sure for how long tho... any mods care to comment? :dunno:

Scott
 
I used a partial can of this stuff. Sprayed it on and let it sit a couple of hours. The former brown paint slid right off.
 

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Geeze.. the suspense is killin me!
Can't someone un-ban herbman?!
This thread was fantastic! Tremendous contribution!
That ought to be good for SOME redemption...
Wha'd he do, slaughter a truck full of babies?????
 
Geeze.. the suspense is killin me!
Can't someone un-ban herbman?!
This thread was fantastic! Tremendous contribution!
That ought to be good for SOME redemption...
Wha'd he do, slaughter a truck full of babies?????

I don't know what he did but to get banned from this forum it must have really been something because this is the friendliest site I've seen. I do have to agree that this was a very interesting thread, I don't have an AR turntable and will probably never get one as I don't really care for manual turntables but I would have loved to see how it turned out.
 
Yeah, I was really lQQkin forward to seeing how it turned out too!
and Yeah.. musta been hellacious!
<shrug>
 
Sad to see this thread truncated like that. As long as it has been revived, though (hehehe).... I've never owned an AR TT (nor even heard one, although I have seen one or two). Can anyone tell me JUST HOW GOOD these AR turntables are, compated with, say, other mechanicals like Duals or Lencos? Or perhaps later TTs like Technics? I assume they are not as nice as Thorens, right?

What I'm getting at is do these things really sound great, or is it just as much a nostalgia thing that people fix them up, or both?
 
Welp...
In large measure, it depends on which generation of AR.
The second generation (80s models) were much better
from the git-go.
Jelco made arms, sturdier cabinets, better motors, etc.
Same guts and better upgrade potential.
(removable arm and was offered with no arm option too)

The earlier generation (60s/70s basically) are merely a
decent/simple budget tables with a plesant sound.
Arm limited..
Upgrading, other than adding a little damping, is best done
on the newer ones.
Besides the arm... and the earlier AR arm is better than its
reputation, if properly set up... the plinth is flimsy, and once
you change out the things you don't want.. there's hardly
anything left AR.
Newer ones instead, just change a few things and you've
got a very decent turntable, or better depending on how
far you go.

As far as the comparisons you mentioned...
Things like Lenco.. totally different animal, and I assume
you mean the big idler behemoths...
Those are totally PLINTH dependant for good/current day
performance level.
The trick with those, is immediately put them in a massive
plinth. Slate or granite for instance.
and make CERTAIN that bearings/motors/idler-wheels are
absolutely up to spec, which isn't so easy.
Its a very opposite approach though.
Massive, unsuspended, and idler drive....
AR=extremely simple (less is more) sprung, light..
decent sounding with little effort.
I can't really see a comparison, other than if given the
full treatment, the big guys are probably much better
other than all out AR mods that really aren't an AR anymore.

RE: Dual...
My first was a Dual 1229q bought new.
I got my used AR XA as an upgrade.
It was, to a point.
The dual was filled with all sorts of resonances..
arm rang like a bell.... all sorts of mechanisms did too.
Idler made rumble, and footfall probs.
The AR did that too, but to a lesser extent.
It was a tiny bit better overall I guess, but left me wanting.
Next upgrade was a Thorens TD166mk2.
Same deal.. minor bit better, but just minor.
The whole process left me majorly wanting.
Next upgrade was a massive one... none of the above even
come close....

Technics and the like..
MY EXPERIENCE.... is that all direct drive are awful for any
sort of serious listening on anything like a hi rez system.
This is clearly a minority opinion on AK!
Sorry, but in every case, I hear a very nasty/overwhelming
backround something... sound I guess thats hard to pinpoint
but is so totally there (to my ears) that it spoils the whole
experience, and makes me want to RUN out and get some
other turntable..
But thats just me :)

Bottom line..
With the ARs, the earlier ones are pleasant/cheap budget
turntables, that take several hours (in their current state)
to bring up to spec, make look nice, and tune.
But very satisfying in a dated/colored sort of way.
Best suited to a vintage system with things like Dyna
ST-70 amps and things that sound like them.
What you put them on is critical too. You can't go to far
wrong starting out with a butcher block... and maybe TRY
isolation feet (not cones)

The newer generation are the way to go for anything like
current level of performance.
Even they need at least SOME mods to get there, otherwise
they sound like and only a bit better than the earlier ones,
save for the improvement from the very decent stock arm.
Even if modding, that arm is a keeper for other than all out
hog wild mods... which one can and should do, if they want
truly HIGH performance.

In that case, its hard to do better as a starting point, and
you can mod little by little with big improvements at each
stage.
Personally I'd start there as a platform to be improved.
I don't think I'd go Thorens for modding, and I wouldn't
use a stocker any more for serious listening.

Hope that helps!
 
Thanks, MuZak. Exactly the kind of specific info that is very helpful in deciding about things like this.

I've just about decided that my next TT (currently using Duals) will probably be a decent Thorens, OR I might decide to a massively re-build/tweak one of my junkier Kenwoods with the "marble" plinth, laminating a granite slab underneath it and using a high-end tone arm.
 
MY EXPERIENCE.... is that all direct drive are awful for any
sort of serious listening on anything like a hi rez system.
This is clearly a minority opinion on AK!
But thats just me :)

Have you ever listened to some of the top-end DD tables like an SP10 mkII in a proper plinth? Or a Denon DP-59?

That "all" generalization gets people riled up, you know.
 
Ok, I'll jump into this one too. Where does the AR XB fit into this group? Not as good as an XA I take it? It does take a manual "nudge" to get the thing rolling and sometimes the platter (or something) makes noises inside and acts like it's hitting something. Weird but a nice little TT.
 
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